tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-263971925492584533.post677216709313330911..comments2023-05-26T07:21:20.200-06:00Comments on Economics Job Market Rumors: SPECIAL TOPIC: Questions to the Demand-SideUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger192125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-263971925492584533.post-40969699120579770472007-02-10T11:17:00.000-06:002007-02-10T11:17:00.000-06:00This discussion has moved to the new message board...This discussion has moved to the new message board.<BR/><BR/>It is a better system and you can still post anonymously.<BR/><BR/>This link will take you to the correct thread:<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://econjobrumors.proboards105.com/index.cgi?board=jobrumorpost&action=display&thread=1171121829" REL="nofollow">ECON JOB RUMOR BOARD</A>Tatonnementhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11208200326364496538noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-263971925492584533.post-84635507433615576712007-02-10T08:23:00.000-06:002007-02-10T08:23:00.000-06:00Some of the econ dept already know about the wiki....Some of the econ dept already know about the wiki.<BR/>You can use the information to negotiate.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-263971925492584533.post-10544646525414761482007-02-09T17:47:00.000-06:002007-02-09T17:47:00.000-06:00Any way of ensuring that econ depts get to know ab...Any way of ensuring that econ depts get to know about the compensation wiki? Can we send them a mass email?<BR/>If you get just one offer, how can you use information about what other similar depts are paying to get a better deal? Any suggestions?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-263971925492584533.post-60018733840476657482007-02-09T13:10:00.000-06:002007-02-09T13:10:00.000-06:00I just started a wiki page to compile detailed off...I just started a wiki page to compile detailed offer and compensation information: <A HREF="http://www.bluwiki.com/go/Econjobmarket_offers" REL="nofollow">http://www.bluwiki.com/go/Econjobmarket_offers</A><BR/><BR/>If there are columns to add or substract, feel free to edit it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-263971925492584533.post-44176569679830947212007-02-09T07:20:00.000-06:002007-02-09T07:20:00.000-06:00I only have a sample of one, but we (a SLAC) issue...I only have a sample of one, but we (a SLAC) issue contracts signed by both parties.<BR/><BR/>The first contract lasts for 3 years, then there's a new contract at reappointment, and then a new one at tenure.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-263971925492584533.post-31108734994905289352007-02-08T19:42:00.000-06:002007-02-08T19:42:00.000-06:00I've been teaching for more than 20 years (SLAC) a...I've been teaching for more than 20 years (SLAC) and I've never seen a contract. We get letters of appointment signed by the dean, but they're never countersigned by the employee. How unusual is that?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-263971925492584533.post-41229393752169006682007-02-08T16:28:00.000-06:002007-02-08T16:28:00.000-06:00You receive the contract post-negotiation. We gene...You receive the contract post-negotiation. We generally don't give "written" offers unless you include email.<BR/><BR/>Then there's bargaining.<BR/><BR/>Once there's agreement, the contract gets sent snail mail.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-263971925492584533.post-42134298778979706552007-02-08T14:50:00.000-06:002007-02-08T14:50:00.000-06:00When you receive the written offer, do you also re...When you receive the written offer, do you also receive the contract (with detailed terms and conditions) at the same time?<BR/><BR/>Please advise.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-263971925492584533.post-1889445057524679312007-02-08T00:27:00.000-06:002007-02-08T00:27:00.000-06:00A phone call is enough. Explain why you're turning...A phone call is enough. Explain why you're turning down the offer (where you're going instead) and say thank-you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-263971925492584533.post-89484758446165905842007-02-07T17:00:00.000-06:002007-02-07T17:00:00.000-06:00Not sure if this post belongs on the compensation ...Not sure if this post belongs on the compensation and negotiations thread or not, but in the interest of getting this thread back on the topic of questions for the demand side ... my question is: when rejecting an offer, what is the proper etiquette? Call search/dept chair first and then follow up with email? Written letter also? I don't want to offend anyone whose paths I may cross again in the future.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-263971925492584533.post-76765741376346770852007-02-07T16:57:00.000-06:002007-02-07T16:57:00.000-06:00One more thing. What I should have said above is ...One more thing. What I should have said above is (change is in Caps):<br /><br />"Apparently, (see reference below) students from top schools that get middle/low ranked jobs are 20% more productive ON AVERAGE than their counter parts from middle/lower ranked schools that get equivalent middle/low ranked school jobs."<br /><br />Undoubtedly, there are some students from middle/lower ranked schools that are better than even the best students from top schools.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-263971925492584533.post-83416553229334266392007-02-07T16:30:00.000-06:002007-02-07T16:30:00.000-06:00"Wait - who said that students at top schools rece..."Wait - who said that students at top schools receive superior training?"<br /><br />I don't think anyone did. The only reference to superior training I could find above was: <br /><br />"I come from a lower ranked school ... Better trained maybe, but what did they do with that training?"<br /><br />I'm sorry I ever asked the question about discounting, it has generated way too much hostility. Why don't we just end this thread, things are stressful enough right now for many of us.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-263971925492584533.post-47561799253573131272007-02-07T16:28:00.000-06:002007-02-07T16:28:00.000-06:00This discussion seems to be going nowhere fast, ex...This discussion seems to be going nowhere fast, except possibly to some borderline offensive remarks.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-263971925492584533.post-48086878770299207452007-02-07T16:16:00.000-06:002007-02-07T16:16:00.000-06:00No need to get so defensive, it was just a questio...No need to get so defensive, it was just a question to the demand side (the purpose of this thread).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-263971925492584533.post-79024874785930970512007-02-07T15:36:00.000-06:002007-02-07T15:36:00.000-06:00Wait - who said that students at top schools recei...Wait - who said that students at top schools receive superior training? In the interest of full disclosure: I am a product of a lower-ranked department... But from what I know (a fair amount, btw) every PhD program provides standard training, at least in the theory courses - we all read the same textbooks (e.g., Mas-Collel, Whinston, and Green or the equivalent for Micro) and the same papers in advanced courses. The *only* difference is the fact that at top schools you get to work with top people (in fact, that's what makes it a "top school").<br /><br />There is a point to all of this: mediocre students at top schools are unambigiously worse than top students at mid-ranked schools because the only thing that seprates them is the name of the school on their diploma (and possibly the quality of their undergraduate work, which is how they got into the top graduate school in the first place). So quit whining about being discounted - if you are in the top-ranked place, you *still* have to signal your quality by publishing something (hence someone's comment about coming out with pubs if you are at an elite place)...otherwise, you are just someone who spent 5 years surrounded by smart people.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-263971925492584533.post-54339699155551969042007-02-07T10:21:00.000-06:002007-02-07T10:21:00.000-06:00"If somebody comes from a top school, they better ..."If somebody comes from a top school, they better come out with publications because they have way more resources. However, someone from a lower ranked school with a publication in a B or a couple of C journals might be a real bargain."<br /><br />Yes, exactly, this is the perception which seems to be driving the discount on middle students from top schools. But what might explain this osentsibly inaccurate perception?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-263971925492584533.post-4996194348863360152007-02-07T10:00:00.000-06:002007-02-07T10:00:00.000-06:00It appears that many have a unique and interesting...It appears that many have a unique and interesting anecdotal experience to share on this issue. However, as economists, most of us understand the importance of large samples and statistical research. That's not to say that all large samples are good, or that all statistical research is good. On the other hand, opinion based not just on personal experience, but on personal experience perhaps influenced by a strong negative emotional response to a particularly unpleasant person (or group of people) is likely unreliable as representing a fair and complete appraisal of all people from the group. I would hope that many would read the paper, but more importantly, that many would try not to have their appraisal of all middle range students from top schools be colored by their opinions on and/or emotional response to a select few middle students from top schools with poor behavior, attitudes, and or ability. Additionally, assuming the paper's results are valid, if one's personal experience with middle students from top schools is not consistent with data from the paper, it might also be that the selection criterion for interviews of these students results in a biased sample of lower ability students compared to the average.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-263971925492584533.post-7407154838860832272007-02-07T09:16:00.000-06:002007-02-07T09:16:00.000-06:00JMHO: Seeing how this is a relative question, mayb...JMHO: Seeing how this is a relative question, maybe the question could be possed another way: Why do R1 schools place such premium on top 25 candidiates? I have not read the paper, though it is now on my to do list. However, what are lower quality schools demanding? Greater research productivity? Greater experience in the classroom? It seems to me that many SLAC schools are demanding a different set of characteristics than a R1 school. So, the market seems to say that R1 schools prefer (greatly) the product produced by top 25 PhD programs relative to SLAC.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-263971925492584533.post-6034523355793580702007-02-07T08:50:00.000-06:002007-02-07T08:50:00.000-06:00If somebody comes from a top school, they better c...If somebody comes from a top school, they better come out with publications because they have way more resources. However, someone from a lower ranked school with a publication in a B or a couple of C journals might be a real bargain. I come from a lower ranked school and I remember talking to my department chair on this issue. It really bothered him that candidates from top schools considered themselves to be more worthy of the position because of their training even though their CV demonstrated no evidence of research productivity. Better trained maybe, but what did they do with that training? Somewhere on this blog someone mentioned that one can expect higher returns from an education at a higher ranked school, but with it comes higher risk and expectations. Fair or not, I perceive that this is the caseAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-263971925492584533.post-54394273316700410782007-02-07T08:49:00.000-06:002007-02-07T08:49:00.000-06:00What I am trying to understand is partly the belie...What I am trying to understand is partly the beliefs underlying what you state. Assuming that what you say is true regarding the better research environment and better network accounting for the 20% increase in productivity among top school graduates, why do you (and apparently others) discount it. That is part of the value of a student from a top school. Its as if you are saying "we must discount the greater productivity of students from top schools because one of the primary reasons they have increased productivity is because they went to the top schools." I still don't quite understand the rationale for discriminating against top school graduates because their greater productivity is in part determined by the quality of their training ground. Hopefully, the discount will quickly dissipate in a manner similar to the way I understand it did on certain types of baseball players after Billy Beane's success with the Oakland A's resulted in the relatively rapid dissemination of information regarding the steep market discount on certain types of baseball players.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-263971925492584533.post-80318916050830812712007-02-07T01:25:00.000-06:002007-02-07T01:25:00.000-06:00To February 6, 2007 7:05 AM
I think they are more ...To February 6, 2007 7:05 AM<br />I think they are more careful themselves interpreting their resulsts than you are. On top of their own caveats, how many of the projects that has been publushed soon after graduation has been started while in their Ph.D. program? Which have certainly provided better research environment. How the network of a person who graduates from top program compares to the network of a mid-ranked institution student? Is there really a steep discount, after all?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-263971925492584533.post-78635301239133670612007-02-06T09:32:00.000-06:002007-02-06T09:32:00.000-06:007:05 AM
On average, top programs produce better j...7:05 AM<br /><br />On average, top programs produce better job candidates. (Though some of the measured research productivity is due to a placement in an institution with more resources for research and not researcher training.)<br /><br />But, do the math. The top five programs produce ~100 Ph.D.'s and hire 5-10. The next top 20 produce another 200-300 and hire 20-30. Even if pedigree was a perfect predictor of quality (it is not), many students from top five programs will not get positions in top 25 institutions. More than a few from these top 25 institutions will place outside of the top 300-400 positions (i.e., a non-research position). <br /><br />Two corollaries:<br />1. There is a lot of raw talent in lesser institutions.<br />2. For very many positions, students from programs outside the top 75 need not apply.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-263971925492584533.post-69607962561364990432007-02-06T08:34:00.000-06:002007-02-06T08:34:00.000-06:00I have an offer from a government agency. I was to...I have an offer from a government agency. I was told to contact other places now and let them know. Who should I contact and what should I say?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-263971925492584533.post-23547370939463137782007-02-06T07:05:00.000-06:002007-02-06T07:05:00.000-06:00Why is there such a steep discount placed on stude...Why is there such a steep discount placed on students at top schools? Apparently, (see reference below) students from top schools that get middle/low ranked jobs are 20% more productive than their counter parts from middle/lower ranked schools that get equivalent middle/low ranked school jobs. For a reference on this statistic, see artile by Valérie Smeets, Frédéric Warzynski and Tom Coupé in Summer 2006 JEP: <br />http://www.aeaweb.org/jep/contents/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-263971925492584533.post-55929607425906250182007-02-06T06:38:00.000-06:002007-02-06T06:38:00.000-06:00The price of signaling in a cover letter is not ze...The price of signaling in a cover letter is not zero. Many many candidates use a blanket cover letter for all institutions. Altering the cover letter for an individual institution requires: 1) time, and 2) specialized knowledge of the institution or information specific to the candidate/institution match.<br /><br />The time is equally costly for all types. However, the specialized knowledge is less costly for the high type to obtain. So, the signal is differentially costly for the two types.<br /><br />You can argue that the cover letter signal is still not very meaningful, because the cost difference is not signficant, but this depends on the context.<br /><br />If I send out 100 apps, but in a cover letter to Swarthmore I discuss a special interest in their urban studies program, I may generate a second look.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com