9:58, can't hurt and for some recipients, is probably expected and a good idea. So you should, yes. I'd say send a short email to all the people who were in the interview, and keep it very short. Also, if they are high on your list, I'd tell them in the email - although I think if they are hire on your list, then you should mainly rely on your adviser to communicate that, since individually telling them that is a form of cheap talk, whereas advisers doing it on your behalf is not.
I have a question for the demand side: when we flyout there is a presentation (job talk), my question is what kind of school will ask us to deliever a sample teaching course instead of present job market paper? Private liberal art school or public BA-granting institution, or both?
10:35. You should ask your contact for an itenerary beforehand. That way you'll know exactly what you're supposed to do. What I've heard is that for research schools, you'll be giving a talk, having meals with faculty, and meeting them one-on-one. For teaching colleges, you'll likely have to teach a class.
I also heard that when you go out to eat, you should order something light. The reason being that you'll be talking the entire time anyway, so you can hardly finish anything, let alone something big. Also, if they ask you to order the wine, play it safe and ask what everyone else likes. That way, you avoid the situation of ordering something that someone hates.
Second tier liberal arts schools will ask for you to teach (say 30 minutes--sometimes on a topic of your choice, sometimes not). they will almost certainly let you know this ahead of time, although I've had one colleague who was ambushed by it. So ask!
I've never heard of a research school doing this, and the top liberal arts schools (e.g., Williams) are trying to signal their research intensity, so they usually won't ask for it.
I have a question for the demand side. The interviewers usually will not reply thank you note, right? If they reply, and write sth like this "we look forward to keep in touch with you in the future" or "you will hear from us soon" or "we hope to see you soon", does that indicate continued interest that probably lead to flyouts?
The wiki indicates that many schools that have already made fly out offers are ranked either in the top 10 or 25, or below 50. Will schools ranked around 25-50 be days or weeks slower in making their fly out offers?
10:11 - that makes sense, actually. 25-50 may be waiting for the top schools to make their choices. But below 50, those schools are competing for an entirely different sent of students.
10:22 - I agree that there is some separation of the market. But do you think the schools in the 25-50 range are waiting for the top 25 to make job offers, or just fly out offers, before they make their fly out offers? I would be surprised if the former is the case, but the later isn't too convincing to me either.
We are in the 25-50 range and have made flyout offers to some people. We have a small number of candidates that we like, but presume will be getting flyouts at top 10 schools. We are waiting before inviting these types of candidates out until we see whether we have a chance, or not.
But, to repeat, we are not waiting on all of our candidates, just a small fraction of them.
12:39 - How can a candidate signal to you their interest in getting a fly out from a school like yours without (1) seeming presumptuous or (2) negatively influencing your prior beliefs about the quality of the candidate? Or do you just recommend sitting tight and waiting?
2:46 - it doesn't mean anything. This a two-sided matching problem, and so it's unclear even to the demand-side whether extending an invitation will result in a hire. They're just being polite. Just watch the wiki board to see if your school has made any invitations.
I would really prefer not to wear a suit to my fly-outs because I'm doing 4 visits next week, and am usually flying out the same night immediately after the talks. So wearing a suit will be uncomfortable. I'm much more comfortable in, say, a sport coat, shirt and tie. Would wearing a shirt, tie, nice slacks and a corduroy jacket be an okay thing to do?
Jan 10, 1:15 asked "How can a candidate signal to you their interest in getting a fly out from a school like yours without (1) seeming presumptuous or (2) negatively influencing your prior beliefs about the quality of the candidate? Or do you just recommend sitting tight and waiting?"
Under normal circumstances it is best to just sit tight and wait. If a school is interested in you, they will contact you. If they are interested, but not sure if they can get you, they will likely still contact you.
Earlier I wrote that my university is waiting to see how the market for a few candidates develops before inviting them for a flyout. I should have added that we let the candidate know this.
Now, there may be some exceptions where you might want to signal your interest. I think a short email to the people who interviewed you that thanks them for their time and lets them know you are particularly interested in their position will suffice. Or, ask your advisor to contact them him or herself.
Generally, the fear that a particular school may think they do not have a shot at you is more important at the first stage (i.e. choosing whom to interview at the ASSA meetings). Once they've interviewed you, it is much more likely they will contact you to assess their odds of attracting you.
that's because it's unionized, so that econ profs make the same as any other (i.e. philo, english). CUNY has the same thing, with the exception of Baruch.
that's because it's unionized, so that econ profs make the same as any other (i.e. philo, english). CUNY has the same thing, with the exception of Baruch.
Regarding attire. I have numerous flyouts, some of which are two day trips with a department. To play it safe, I wanted to just wear my suit for the entire duration of a trip to a school, but my wife thinks it's a good idea to pack something "business casual" for dinner.
Can someone on the demand side discuss the range of clothing preferences for such a trip. I know for the job talk itself, a suit is appropriate. But what about meals - say, dinner? And what about the second day where I'm just visiting with various people.
Otherwise: dress slacks, sport coat, and possibly a tie.
No one will have a problem with you being too dressy. But, someone may have a problem with you being too casual.
When your ride picks you up from the airport, they'll generally let you get checked into the hotel before dinner. You should be in a dress shirt and slacks at least. Just simply ask if you should put a tie on for dinner. That's the simplest approach.
6:48 - good information. So what you're telling me is, no one is going to think you are over-dressed if everytime they see you you are in a suit - even at dinner. Right? I mainly want to take all the attire-risks off the table, and just play it safe the entire time.
8:37--I think that's right. The only caveat is that I think it's better to not wear the same suit two days straight. But, this is simply a personal preference.
So, for me, I'd wear a suit for the interview day (including dinner), and a coat/tie and nice slacks for everything else.
If you do wear a suit both days, I would wear a tie/shirt combo that made it clear that I was wearing a different outfit each day!
To first-tier liberal arts colleges: Would you advise your fly out job candidates, in preparing for their seminars, to error on the side of too much technical detail but not broad enough appeal, or too little technical detail but very broad appeal? Just wondering how I should "taylor" my seminar to places such as yours. Thanks.
Regarding top liberal arts colleges: consider your audience.
We are well trained economists, but probably not in your field. So, your talk should be more general. Assume that we're smart, but that we haven't been exposed to the particular literature or techniques that you're discussing. You'll need to motivate why your topic is important and how it makes a contribution.
We're evaluating you in part on your ability to communicate as well as your ability to produce decent research.
One technique is to skip certain details in the interest of time, but to tell your audience that you're willing to spend more time on that portion if they are interested. Make sure you describe the important technical aspects at an intuitive level. Be prepared to alter the flow of the talk on the fly.
what are the ethics of canceling flyouts? i have recieved an offer from a place high on my list, but still have a couple flyouts remaining. i want to cancel them, but my advisors say i might "offend" people. this makes absolutely no sense to me. why would a school want to fly someone out who has 0 probability of accepting the job? (btw, i am not talking about top 20 departments here) a further piece of information: the offer i want is to leave to academia, so there is no "networking" concern here.
To 10:06am -- This is 9:31am again. Thanks so much for the reply. It was very helpful.
To 10:19am -- I would say by all means, cancel a fly out that you would never consider accepting an offer from. I think Cawley's paper might have somethinng to say about this as well.
3.52pm: schools would typically wait until after the last fly-out. They may have a faculty meeting the day of or the day after the last flyout. So check the school's recruiting/seminar schedule. this is also a very reasonable question to ask during your flyout, although you may not get a completely honest answer.
Exception: schools may be forced to make an offer before they see all the candidates in case their top choice has a competing exploding offer.
I was wondering, does anyone know anything about the job market scramble? Are these just crappy jobs no one wants or what? Or is it a case that reasonable places like UC Santa Cruz just lose all their candidates. Any idea of how many jobs appear. Also, any idea of what the jobs in the FEB JOE are like? Any thoughts at all would be much appreciated.
What happens at Liberal Arts Colleges (and low ranked state schools) if flouts are done, offers are made, and no one accepts. Do schools then go down their list and make additional flyouts, do they scramble, or do they just postpone the search until the next year.
12:32 PM - Each school will decide based on the quality of the remaining pool of candidates. If there is nobody "acceptable" they will postpone their hire to next year.
My school is ranked top 25-50. I had a good number of interviews at LAS (small schools), state universities like University of "State" at ....I did not receive any calls and it seems that they did not offer flyouts yet. Is the timing right? When they should make call? Is it a bad idea to email them now?
Ask for help! I was supposed to have fly-out this week. I was unable to go due to one thing that is beyond my control. The school then re-scheduled my fly-out to march 1st.
Does this mean that they are less interested in me? In general, how would offer deicsions be made? Do you wait until finishing all fly-outs, or you pretty much already have a decision whenever you see a very close match? Thanks!!
12:32---I've seen this happen at LA schools. We see 3 candidates that we like, we make offers, they turn us down, and we go on down the list into March.
As someone said, this depends on the applicant pool. We have rolled over to the next year in the past, but this year's candidates look quite good, so I don't see us doing that this year.
Schools rarely make offers on a position if they've already *scheduled* other people for flyouts for the same position. But, if they have multiple positions, then they may make a quick offer.
There are several LA colleges that I interviewed with (and that I am interested in) that are near one another and within driving distance of me. Though I have not heard from any of them regarding a flyout, I am considering contacting them and suggesting that I drive up for a campus visit due to their proximity to me (and one another). Is this a good idea.
The only way it makes a difference is if you were on the margin and they are still debating who to have out. Since you can't know this, you may as well try. If you're not annoying about it, then there's no way to annoy anyone. :)
I recently had a campus visit where I thought I did quite well during my teaching demonstration and research seminar. But I was a little quiet (mainly due to fatigue) during faculty dinner and also during some of the office visits later in the evening. To what extent do you think this will hurt my chances?
For future campus visits, if I were to err on one side, which side do you think that should be - too much talking or too little?
Don't err on any side, talk the right amount and adjust it if you feel you are the one talking the most/ the least. If you are too nervous or anxious to realize that you are talking too much (or too little) - maybe you are in the wrong field, after all all you are doing is meeting with people...which is kinda what this job is.
One more question to demand side: One staff from a school (not in the U.S.) has been working hard for arranging my fly-out to that school (invitation letters, visa, etc.). Should I send him a small gift when I see him? Thanks!
9:12. I don't completely agree. The higher ranked the school, the less social skills matter. But, I agree with your advice overall.
5:55. I've seen this make a difference. But, I'm at a teaching school, so social skills and communication skills do matter here. If you're a naturally quiet person, you may want to be intentional about speaking more. If you are naturally boisterous, then you may want to tone it down.
I have a silly question, please don't laugh at me. When we transfer the airport, and we eat some humburger, should we keep the receipt for reimbursement, or we pay it ourself?
That is a silly question (sorry...) - it is an expense incurred while travelling to a campus visit - why wouldn't you get it reimbursed? If you don't want to bother with an extra receipt, that's another story, but as it is I don't see how this meal is any different from anything else you may pay for out of pocket.
remember that most reimbursements go through the department secretary, so it doesn't matter so much. meals are generally accepted to be part of travel expense, unless you're kicking back beers at the airport bar.
I once tried to get dry cleaning put on my hotel bill b/c it was part of a multi-day national flyout tour. They balked even though they were sharing airfare. Go figure.
How about a visa application fee? In my case, Canada. I am happy to go and I already paid for it, but if they could reimburse me it would be great. Should I ask them or just forget?
What are likely scenarios for those who don't have much on the table right now (e.g. <=2 flyouts)? Is it time to start answering "help wanted" ads at the local fast food restaurants yet?
I was wondering, is it ok to call a place you didnt apply to at this point to see if theyre interested. Eg for a student at a top 5 place, say, to call a ranked place >60.
When we transfer the airport, and we eat some humburger, should we keep the receipt for reimbursement, or we pay it ourself?
It's fine to keep the receipts and ask for reimbursement, especially if you're a graduate student. We remember what it's like! If you were a tenured professor making a lateral move, on the other hand, you'd look really cheap asking for the burger to be reimbursed...
How about a visa application fee?
Sure, that's a very legitimate expense.
Is it ok to ask department chair/tenured faculty about health benefits, living expenses etc?
Yes, but don't ask about salary. Wait until an offer is made.
What are likely scenarios for those who don't have much on the table right now (e.g. <=2 flyouts)? Is it time to start answering "help wanted" ads at the local fast food restaurants yet?
Don't despair! First-round flyouts don't always work out. It's common to hear in February and even early March. At some point, however, you should consider one-year visiting positions.
I was wondering, is it ok to call a place you didnt apply to at this point to see if theyre interested.
That would seem really weird. Unless you have a very good reason for why you didn't apply when you were supposed to, I'd think that you're just desperate.
"I was wondering, is it ok to call a place you didnt apply to at this point to see if theyre interested."
Thank you for you advice. One more thing: what if you did apply, but never heard anything back, but still feel you are well qualified for the position (i.e. suppose they might have rejected you initially cos they thought they wouldnt hire you, say). Actually, I am desperate.
Well, I guess a short e-mail to the Chair saying that you are still interested in the position couldn't hurt you, but the chances that it'll lead to anything are really, really tiny (even if the school you're interested in is hating the people they're flying out, they will tend to go to other people they interviewed in Chicago, and not back to the initial pool). If you're really desperate, contact the places you interviewed with in Chicago, let them know that you're still interested, and ask them where you stand. They're still your best bet. More importantly, don't be desperate! A lot of flyout invitations don't go out until February.
On another thread several people have claimed they have received flyouts after informing schools they will be in the area for a flyout at a different school. I am wondering why this is so. Is it because (1) the student is signaling an interest that makes a school think they have a better chance of "landing" the candidate (and thus not wasting time/financial costs), (2) because the student is signaling his/her availability, (3) the school can save on the financial cost of a flyout (seems unlikely since the greatest cost is perhaps time), (4) other. Any response is much appreciated.
3:36 p.m. – I am planning on emailing schools that have not granted me second round interviews and am trying to determine what information is most relevant to them. That is, I am trying to determine whether I should simply relay to them my availability, whether I should relay to them my strong interest in their particular institution (where I have it), whether I should offer to provide for my own transportation, or whether I should do something else. Although I cannot be certain, it is possible (and I fear) that many of the schools I interviewed with (primarily liberal arts schools) erroneously think I am out of their reach or am uninterested in them for some other reason. (Note that I come from a school that does not typically place students at liberal arts institutions, but have a strong interest in teaching (and research) nevertheless. Also, note that my only interview is at the relatively highest ranked liberal arts school that I interviewed with at the meetings.)
#3 is important. Remember that even though the time cost is the highest, the actual "flyout" cost is the constraint b/c usually the dean only allows three visits. You can convince the dean to give you four if one is cheap.
So, the time cost is high, but the dean's decision is the constraint.
10:18- Being on the faculty at a place ranked around 60, I could guarantee you that calling us would not land you an interview. To be honest, I think most places would find it insulting and arrogant.
We do not typically fly out people from top five schools. We know that we cannot get the top people from these places. Our experience has also been that the top person from a place ranked maybe 35-60 is much better than a middle of the pack person from a top 5 place. We therefore focus our efforts on the former.
People from top places seem to end up with visiting jobs every year. Attending Harvard really is a high reward/high risk scenario. Obviously if your research hits you can end up anywhere in academia (except perhaps your own school). Because you do not typically have significant teaching experience, however, SLAC and teaching schools are not interested. If your research misses, it is therefore pretty easy to fall all the way to the bottom of the market.
Sorry for the rant but every year I have to interview 5 people with mediocre research who expect us to fall at their feet because of their pretty pedigree.
I have a question re a flyout. Basically, I missed my flight (due to a late faculty dinner). To cut a long story short, the faculty member ended up putting me up at her place, and we ended up sleeping together. Next morning, I had to leave at 4am and we havent got in touch since. Do you think I should email her to thank for her hospitality, or would that convey the impression I was stalking her or something. Really, I feel a bit awkward about it, and have no idea of the etiquette here.
To 7:54: I'm not on the demand side, but I would say that, according to the etiquette of one-night stands, you should e-mail her and thank her for her 'hospitality.' (BTW, we want details on this hospitality.)
Well, actually, she was a senior faculty member, but didnt look her age. To be honest, I think both of us had a bit too much to drink, and, rest assured, this hasnt happened on previous flyouts. Typically, Id feel a bit bad about this sort of thing, to be honest, but she seemed a bit desperate. (Basically, she came in to me naked and said: "Do you supply it on demand?"). Thing is, her husband is also a faculty member (but was away), but according to her, he routinely sleeps with one of the other faculty members (who actually was at the dinner). The dept seems rather sleazy, to put it mildly. Overall, though, it was a great flyout.
Oh, my goodness, I am speechless, too. But I have another question: I heard that schools will usually flyout their dream candidates first. So if I am the last to fly out (I don't whether I am the last to flyout, but I think not the first to flyout, either), does that mean I am ranked the last?
I'm sorry, but this is the most implausible story I've ever heard. Even if this actually happened, the interviewee would never write this on the blog since he'd have to believe that this is a unique enough story that he actually loses anonymity with the entire dept he interviewed with. But thank you for trying to add some spice to an otherwise dry blog with dry questions.
BTW, on my flyout last week, there was a mermaid waiting for me in the bathtub of the hotel room where they put me up. Now I'm worried that I'll be the father of some fishy smelling children. I feel funny about this. What should I do? Did any of you meet a unicorn on your flyout who can give me some good advice?
5:58---I can understand your point of view, but your experience doesn't ring true to me. I'm sure you're telling the truth, but I don't think the data back you up in terms of generalities.
On the other hand, I only have anecdotal evidence as well. I'm at a SLAC, and we (and our peers) are populated by top 10 PhDs. These were likely not the top people out, so it's a reasonable place to land.
At top liberal arts colleges, students sometimes attend the job talk seminar, right? (or wrong?) In thinking about how to pitch the talk, how important is it that the few students who show up be able to follow the introduction of a job talk? The nitty-gritty technical stuff? Thanks.
7:51-You make a fair point and I was being too general. Certainly the top LACs are research jobs and there is a large group of LACs below that that care significantly about both research and teaching.
My point is that 80-90% of the academic demand for new Ph.D.s comes from places that are fundamentally teaching jobs. Most of these places will not look at people who have not taught their own class. Lower ranked research schools really do not need to pick from the scraps of top 5 schools. I think the idea that someone in that position could cold call them and that the school would be interested is silly.
3:27, I believe those graduating from top 10 schools have no fewer opportunities to teach classes before graduating than others. A good many people in these programs become less research-focused and graduate with proven teaching ability. They seem like natural candidates for LACs. More so than top graduates of lower-ranked schools, who will have a strong research bias.
Jan 28, 10:58 - Don't you think this flyout adventure is already common knowledge in the concerned department? Moreover, it may have been an intentional part of the candidate's evaluation, and probably was fully discussed, assessed, and compared the next morning.
I scheduled a number of flyouts but before I could finish all of them, I was offered and accepted a position from my preferred school. I have called the schools where I still have flyouts scheduled and have offered to cancel. They all prefer to cancel the trip and concentrate on their obtainable candidates. One, however, already bought a non-refundable airplane ticket for me. Since I cancelled, am I obligated to reimburse them for these costs?
3:27-That is simply wishful thinking and it is outright wrong. Harvard, Yale, Princeton, MIT, etc. are far too rich to ever let a grad student teach a class. Some grad students at those places may reach out to teach their own class at another local school, but they are the exceptions. Large, underfunded state schools cannot afford to have faculty teach every course and hence, the grad students at those places are much more likely to teach.
This is not a knock on top ten places. I would certainly prefer to send my own children to a place where only faculty teach courses.
Grad students do teach undergraduate classes at the University of Chicago. It makes a lot of sense, if you think about it. Professors at top universities are far too busy with their research: thay are happy to delegate the teaching to grad students.
At Yale, grad students cannot teach their own course during the fall or spring semesters, but some grad students teach their own course during the summer semester.
at harvard, grad students can design and lead sophomore tutorials in any subject they want, e.g. "The Grown Up Economics of Video Games," "Peers: It's Who You Know," or "Sex, Drugs and Rock and Roll."
I too take issue with 5:48's comments. I am also a student at a top 5 place. Several students here have independently acted as instructors for undergraduate core courses, undergraduate field courses, and graduate courses. It may be that you have not encountered such students, but what you are saying is simply factually incorrect.
The argument was whether students at these places have as many teaching opportunities as their peers at lower ranked schools, not whether they ever teach. The latter often teach 5-10 of their own classes prior to entering the market. This does not compare to "several students" teaching their own class or one counterexample where grad students do not teach (Chicago). It may be factually incorrect to say that they never teach but it is also factually incorrect to say that they have the same opportunities.
If anything, grad students at higher ranked institutions have MORE opportunities to teach. By delegating undergrad teaching, faculty members at the top school can better concentrate on research and graduate teaching.
There seems to be a strange bias against students at highly ranked institutions by some people on this board. Perhaps it is due to negative experiences that the biased individuals have had with pompous students from top tiered institutions. Please keep in mind though that most graduates from top ranked institutions that I know are not pompous -- usually its only the insecure ones who are.
"their peers at lower ranked schools, not whether they ever teach. The latter often teach 5-10 of their own classes prior to entering the market." How low do we need to go to have 5 classes taught (I assume "teach own classes" means full responsibility)? It is certainly outside top-20. Do people who teach 10 ever graduate??? I would admire them...
i'm surprised jan 28 5:58pm's side comment about teaching is getting the most play, rather than the more general aggressive, dyspeptic, stereotyping rant about people with "pretty pedigrees." i would like gently to remind you, 5:58, that there are human beings on the other side of this process, many of whom are terrified about the lasting consequences that these weeks could end up having on our careers. if someone calls you, it might not be because he or she is trying to be arrogant or insulting. rather, it might be because one wants to be certain that if one doesn't get a job, it wasn't because of an information failure. try to be a little understanding. as tedious as this must be for you, i'm sure it's a whole lot easier to be where you are than where many of us are right now.
5:19 - Congratulations on your new job! That's fantastic. I'm interviewing with my third right now, and let me say, I am very envious of you, not just because you've got one, but because you're not jet lagged in a strange hotel writing a lecture about the law of demand like me! On a serious note, that's so fantastic about your placement. Good luck with your new career.
That you are even considering the question of reimbursement says something about your character. If you chose to reimburse them for the airplane ticket, I think it would be generosity on your part, and not obligation. The ticket is a sunk cost to them. I would not feel obligated to reimburse them, personally. They budget for these very types of things, after all.
I'm at a 60-120 school. I've taught (with full responsibility) six courses. I had to get outside funding to get the courses to stop, otherwise I would've at least taught 2-3 more. Finishing in five years would've been very hard to do with that many, but I think I could've done it, partly becauase at my school, they had me teaching principles of macroeconomics mostly. So the preps were getting smaller and smaller as the years went on. That's partly how the lower tier schools are able to do so many though - most are teaching the same courses over and over.
I think teaching has helped me a small bit, but that's because I'm applying for jobs at places where no decent top ranked candidate is applying. I doubt teaching counts for much at any R1 school.
2:10am -- I am on the supply side but I understand the reason for a rant. It has been answered somewhere (and a few times, I believe) that if a school has interviewed you and thinks that you are not attainable, they will still contact you, sooner or later, to check your status. Thus, the idea of calling a school to let them know that you are attainable amounts to saying "I am so good, I can't believe you have not called for the flyout yet." Well... You certainly contact schools when you have an offer in hands or is thinking about changing you availability in one way or another, but, well, that's completely different story: you are then saying "you are so good that I (may) prefer you to the other school." I think there are subtle differences, aren't they?
I'm not sure I get all the hubbub here. It's common practice to call schools in the general area to let them know you have a flyout, regardless of one's "pedigree."
If you mean calling a school in CA to tell them you have a flyout in NY, then that's a bit more odd. But, if you phrase it as "I'm starting to get calls for flyouts, and I wanted to be sure to touch base with you before my dance card is full, b/c you are high on my list," then that's different.
And, as you say, calling your top choice school to tell them you have an offer from elsewhere is certainly acceptable.
But, importantly, none of the above would suggest the caller is arrogant in anyway, IMHO.
The original post has suggested e-mailing places to signal one's availability (see January 28, 2007 4:15 PM). That is, not to tell them that they are high on your list, but that he/she expects to be high on their list...
Let's get back to January 28 7:54 -- it was a lot more interesting:
While I believe this story (and the unicorn/mermaid story) to be untrue, it's actually not outside the realm of possibility for 7:54 to happen.
Back in the swinging 70s, when I was in graduate school at a top 10 program, there was a couple on the faculty who could very well have done this. The husband was rumored to have a graduate student girlfriend in another department, and openly pursued other women while his wife was in earshot, or even participating in the conversation. There were so few women in the department, other than his wife, that I doubt they would have slept with himk, if only because it would have been too risky for a junior faculty member to do something like that and risk the shame and career suicide that could accompany it.
Whether either of them slept with job market candidates is an interesting question. There were certainly never any rumors about that, and he was pretty bad at keeping his mouth shut when it came to sex.
The wife used to make out with male graduate students at grad student parties. Ugh.
"Whether either of them slept with job market candidates is an interesting question."
Okay. But when they say that flyouts are a good way to get to know the faculty, this is going a bit too far. That said, economists are all for removing barriers to entry arent they?
I am the writer of the original posts which I think started this whole bruhaha (1/28, 2:44 p.m. and 4:15 p.m.). I wrote the posts because I had noticed that several individuals on another thread were posting that they were successful in obtaining on campus interviews after calling schools they interviewed with at the ASSA meetings and telling them they would be in the area for another interview. With my posts I was asking why making these calls resulted in them getting on campus interviews. That is, I was trying to ascertain what information they were providing to the schools (by making the call) that resulted in the schools deciding to offer an on campus interview. Obviously since the call resulted in the interview, it provided some piece of information that tipped the balance. I was trying to determine what the piece of information was. I received several excellent answers which imply that it could be (1) the students is relating the student's availability, (2) the student was relaying the student's interest, and / or (3) the student was relaying a decreased financial cost of inviting him/her. The "and / or" in the prior sentence is crucial. Any combination (or isolated event) of the three can probably explain getting the on campus interview, depending on the school/search chair. Moreover, its apparent from some of the posts that by relaying inoformation described in option (1), one could either help or hurt one's chances of landing an on campus visit, again depending on the shool/search chair (if it is perceived as being pompous). So bottom line is the strategy may work because of (1), (2), or (3), but it can be a risky strategy if the school/search chair receiving the call perceives the call as signaling (1) and they interpret that as pompous or otherwise offensive. Thank you all for the excellent discussion, it has been very helpful to me.
Another somewhat related question: Im a student at a top 5 place who applied to a place ranked round 70, but never heard back from them. However, this might well have been due to some issue re the possibility of hiring me. As of now, Im extremely interested in this place and would accept an offer from them this minute. Id be extremely grateful if someone could tell me if its ok to get in touch would them about this.
1) What should I negotiate for? I am thinking of asking them for moving expenses and a new computer (btw, there is no course reduction available). Can I ask for anything else?
2) I've expressed my strong interest in another institution during my campus visit (I haven't received any offer from them). How can I politely inform them that I am thinking of accepting an offer elsewhere?
3) Is there a cost of living calculator somewhere?
Answers to any of the above questions will be very much appreciated.
I recall someone from the demand side had said that there are some changes in how they rank candidates before and after the AEA meetings. My related question is: how often do schools make their first job offer to the 3rd or 4th candidate they fly out instead of their 1st or 2nd fly out candidate (which presumably they ranked 1st or 2nd after the AEA meetings)? In other words, how likely is it for the last fly out candidate to be judged the best one?
6:53-- 1) Moving costs and other "startup" money are pretty standard negotiating items. Salary is only negotiable to a point. If you can commit to "if you can give me XX, then I can say yes right now" then you might want to try it. Otherwise having another offer in hand is the best way to move salary. You may want to find out about "hidden" benefits like IRA contributions (my institution is outrageously high---over 10% contribution with no matching required). 2) See similar question in "General job market questions" (at the end of the thread). 3) Lots of cost of living calculators. google.
7:02---In the same way that rankings change after the first round, they can change after the second round.
We had one candidate that we were very excited about after Chicago, but the campus visit showed us that he/she looked good for 30 minutes, but had nothing more to offer.
So, anything can happen. Also, many first choice offers go elsewhere, so it's frequent for a 2nd or 3rd choice to eventually get the offer.
I realize that scheduling conflicts may not always permit top candidates to be flown out first, but I would assume that's the case more often than not.
To 9:56 -- Why would this be the case? I am not talking about flying the top candidate in mid-March, but about the order: schools may have 3 candidates coming in a given week. Would their order mean anything? I could not imagine how. What if it is spread over two weeks? Or if they don't beleive they will be able to get their top candidate?
10:45 - you really can't imagine why the order might matter? How about this. They are interested in seeing their top preference, and so contact him first because they do not want his schedule to fill up.
To 10:55 -- You are talking about whom they contacted first and I can't agree more with you: why anyone would start calling people from the bottom of the list? You typically does not have this information, though. We have been talking about scheduling the top candidate first. You example does not apply here. BTW, haven't you been a little aggressive in your post?
And another thing: schools that have contacted me so far has been offering me a very wide range of dates: pick a day in these three weeks, something like this. I have not necessarily picked the earliest one: I have not known who else is going to call.
Even though people on both sides of the market would like to believe that the order in which candidates come in for campus visits does not matter, I still think it often matters for the ex-post ranking of the candidates. First and last impressions are important in people's decision making process, regardless of how "rational" we may think the demand side is. Anyway, that's just my opinion, so feel free to disagree.
I think order matters and is *correlated* with preference.
We contact our top candidates first. They have the first opportunity to schedule early flyouts. Early flyouts are generally preferred, b/c you save other slots for schools that may contact you later, etc.
For these reasons the order is correlated. The only question is how high the correlation is.
For us (on the demand side) we gave our first candidate an offer before we saw anyone else. He/she was our first choice coming out of Chicago and the campus visit did not disappoint. So, in that case order *really* mattered.
11:54 - I wasn't being aggressive. Apologies if it came out that way. Terse email posts are notoriously a bad way of communicating, so I should've been more clear. I was mainly trying to say something along the lines of 3:14 - that order is correlated with preference. I would have a hard time believing otherwise, but hey what do I know. I'm new to this stuff.
Have most middle/lower ranked liberal arts colleges conducted flyouts? What is the general time table for these schools? I still haven't gotten flyout or heard anything from a number of schools and am wondering if I should keep hope alive, or start applying for fast food jobs?
I've often wondered (Q. for the demand side) why schools don't send a form email to people they interviewed at the ASSA telling them they did not make it to the flyouts. What purpose does maintaining this blanket silence serve?
10:01, I can't agree with you more. I think it is inhumane. Think how much DWL that schools have generated by keeping hundreds of PhDs wondering for weeks and doing nothing productive.
Suppose for some reason, a candidate who accepts a faculty position fails to complete her PhD before starting her new job. What happens then? Will the institution withdraw the offer or will they simply offer a lower salary until PhD is completed???
1:35am -I got an offer yesterday, and what I was told was, "Here's your 10-month salary. If you don't have your PhD when you get here, it's 10% less and you come on as an instructor."
I think, but could be wrong, if you come on without your PhD, the tenure clock doesn't immediately start. That is, tenure starts from the moment of hire, or from the moment you get your PhD after hire.
Another somewhat related question: Im a student at a top 5 place who applied to a place ranked round 70, but never heard back from them. However, this might well have been due to some issue re the possibility of hiring me. As of now, Im extremely interested in this place and would accept an offer from them this minute.
I see nothing wrong with a quick e-mail that says "I'm still very interested in interviewing with you." If we're not liking the people we've seen so far and are beginning to think about flying out more, we may like to hear from you.
2) I've expressed my strong interest in another institution during my campus visit (I haven't received any offer from them). How can I politely inform them that I am thinking of accepting an offer elsewhere?
I'm not sure I get this. If you have no offer from X and you haven't accepted Y yet, you've got nothing to say to X. Once you accept Y (and I mean you sign on the dotted line), then please do us a favor and contact all the other schools to let them know that you're off the market.
In other words, how likely is it for the last fly out candidate to be judged the best one?
It's perfectly possible.
Have most middle/lower ranked liberal arts colleges conducted flyouts?
Yes, sorry. But these schools may also decide to fly out more people if they didn't like (or lost) the ones they already flew out.
I've often wondered (Q. for the demand side) why schools don't send a form email to people they interviewed at the ASSA telling them they did not make it to the flyouts.
B/c we don't know for sure yet. If we hate/lose the first n people we fly out, we may call you. So we don't want to rule you out yet.
Suppose for some reason, a candidate who accepts a faculty position fails to complete her PhD before starting her new job. What happens then? Will the institution withdraw the offer or will they simply offer a lower salary until PhD is completed???
You certainly don't lose your offer! You may get a lower salary, but we actually pay the same.
I think, but could be wrong, if you come on without your PhD, the tenure clock doesn't immediately start.
No, it doesn't make any difference for us. When you start is what counts for the tenure clock. Whether you've defended or not is irrelevant.
to 1:35 better check in place you are interested in, i know some places where you cannot sign the contract without phd (no idea whether you can postpone the contract by month or 2 or you are loosing it, but for sure you cannot make it without phd)
to 12:06: Thank you very much for your comments, this hels us a lot. I hope more people from demand side could like you and answer our questions. Many thanks again!
To 2:33: when do you sign the contract? I was under the impression that you sign the contract when you receive the offer. If that's the case, they can't withdraw the offer, can they?
to 9:16, in the place i have in mind you sign the contract in sept/october which is the time to start your job, is not that? you receive an offer much earlier of course, but no idea what happens if you fail to defend phd by end of sept, sincerely i do not know anyone that would take such a risk do you sign contract in other places earlier?? please tell me
I am not sure when the contract is signed. Can you give us an idea about the school you've in mind. For example, is it a research university (top 30 or outside top 30), small liberal arts college, masters granting institution?
from 9:44 to 10:25: I am a candidate too and it wasn't useful to me either. But I'd like to understand it byond my casual experience. Did the departments in fact take a closer look at their 'signals'? My impression is that they kind of made business as usual (like in the past).
EU = European Union; I guess 9:17 talks about LSE or Tilburg, if considering the world ranking.
Re 12.06's reply: "B/c we don't know for sure yet. If we hate/lose the first n people we fly out, we may call you. So we don't want to rule you out yet." I know thats the standard argument, but it isn't really logical. All you are doing is informing people that they did not make it to the top 3 (or 4 or 5) and it can be understood, or there could be a line stating, that it does not rule out still being called, it just makes it more improbable. More information is usually good for both markets and blood pressure. In any case thanks for replying. I hope people on the demand side rethink this a bit. About signaling, I think one major problem would have been that most places would have been well into their decision making when the signals were released. And I'm not sure how many departments had even thought about what they would do with the signals. So my guess is -- everyone ignored them.
10:50 My guess is that it didn't help and didn't hurt. But despite the fact that efforts to increase efficiency are welcome and should be honored, could this signalling procedure have been prepared more carefully?
Contracts are usually signed as soon as you officially accept the offer.
If it matters for the school, they will put in a provision about when the PhD needs to be completed. In my case, I was required to have filed it by October, or else I was subject to a discretionary 10% penalty in salary until the PhD was filed. I was also officially an "instructor" up until that point.
Regarding signalling: In my school (top 20), the average benefit seemed to be 1 interview per person. So I do think it made a difference (although end results - i.e. offers - aren't obvious yet).
But are you sure that your PhD candidates wouldn't have had an interview with the school anyway? Were they informed by the interviewers that their signal was decisive?
On signaling: I had interview with SLAC that said they would not have called me without signal cause they thought I would prefer & get offer from research dept.
Was the SLAC Committee right? Of the 12 or so colleagues from other institutions I talked with, only two changed their interview list due to a signal.
It seems signals only seems to work for those candidates who appear too good and want to signal their willingness to talk to lower quality schools. If signaling works, it might actually reduce AEA interviewing opportunities for those with PhDs from non-top 25 schools.
Ceteris Paribus this will result in a larger AEA scramble.
4:15 - someone reasoned in an earlier thread that the optimal signal was to send to someone you were already a good match for. He seemed to reason the signal was therefore basically cheap talk - where it might help is to move down, rather than move up. So what you could be observing is just the high correlation between signals being correctly sent.
How do you think Roth, Cawley, and Levine will likely estimate the additional benefit of an interview? How are they going to disentangle, in other words, the endogeneity in signals sent to places where the probability of a match is already very high? I'm not sure how you untangle that, empirically. But I'm sure there is a way - I take for granted that everyone is smarter than me, so I figure someone knows how to do it, even though I can't.
11:15 - I'm not sure I understood your comment. But at least two of the candidates signalled "downward" and got those interviews as a result (explicitly stated by the interviewers). And at least two more signalled "upward" to places that probably would not have noticed them (due to lack of advisor connections). For the latter cases, I don't have specific proof that they wouldn't have had the interviews otherwise, but I suggest that it's reasonable to think that they called attention to themselves where otherwise they might have simply been overlooked.
11:33 - My comment is mainly that someone had reasoned in an earlier thread that you should signal to someone for whom you are already a good match, because signals are relatively cheap. So, you signal to the person who you already think has a good chance of hiring you in the first place. To signal down could bring you on the radar of someone - but, a lot of signaling down already occurs in the letters of recommendation. For instance, I signaled to a SLAC for geographic preferences, and communicated that in my letter. That alone is a signal - and geographic signaling has occured in letters for a long time. So nothing new is added there by creating signals. I suspect your friends signaled down for geographic preferences, right?
So I think that if you signal to schools for which you are already a probable match, it becomes hard to observe the additional benefit of a signal to a match. Did it increase the probability of the interview? Or was it that you sent it to the school for which you were already likely to be interviewed, in which case, it's endogeneous. So we should see signals correlated with interviews. It'll be interesting to see if signals are correlated with final matches, though. But, again, it's still endogenous. So I don't know. I'm not sure how you disentangle that since signals are not random.
What you could observe is last year's survey about "happiness with the match" and this year's, and see if there's any difference. That might be a clue about the usefulness of it. And just interviewing schools - how many invited someone of higher quality because of the signal? How many invited someone of relatively lower quality because of the signal (independent of the letters of reference, for instance)?
What is the price of signaling down using a cover letter signal? Its zero. What is the price of signaling down using an AEA signal? Its the foregone AEA signals to other schools (there are only two AEA signals allowed per person). If you were receiving signals, which one would you put more weight on? (There does seems to be an equilibrium where no schools value AEA signals at all, and thus the opportunity costs of AEA signals is zero, and thus AEA signals are valued the same as cover letter signals, but without thinking about it too much, its probably not a stable equilibrium.)
The price of signaling in a cover letter is not zero. Many many candidates use a blanket cover letter for all institutions. Altering the cover letter for an individual institution requires: 1) time, and 2) specialized knowledge of the institution or information specific to the candidate/institution match.
The time is equally costly for all types. However, the specialized knowledge is less costly for the high type to obtain. So, the signal is differentially costly for the two types.
You can argue that the cover letter signal is still not very meaningful, because the cost difference is not signficant, but this depends on the context.
If I send out 100 apps, but in a cover letter to Swarthmore I discuss a special interest in their urban studies program, I may generate a second look.
Why is there such a steep discount placed on students at top schools? Apparently, (see reference below) students from top schools that get middle/low ranked jobs are 20% more productive than their counter parts from middle/lower ranked schools that get equivalent middle/low ranked school jobs. For a reference on this statistic, see artile by Valérie Smeets, Frédéric Warzynski and Tom Coupé in Summer 2006 JEP: http://www.aeaweb.org/jep/contents/
On average, top programs produce better job candidates. (Though some of the measured research productivity is due to a placement in an institution with more resources for research and not researcher training.)
But, do the math. The top five programs produce ~100 Ph.D.'s and hire 5-10. The next top 20 produce another 200-300 and hire 20-30. Even if pedigree was a perfect predictor of quality (it is not), many students from top five programs will not get positions in top 25 institutions. More than a few from these top 25 institutions will place outside of the top 300-400 positions (i.e., a non-research position).
Two corollaries: 1. There is a lot of raw talent in lesser institutions. 2. For very many positions, students from programs outside the top 75 need not apply.
To February 6, 2007 7:05 AM I think they are more careful themselves interpreting their resulsts than you are. On top of their own caveats, how many of the projects that has been publushed soon after graduation has been started while in their Ph.D. program? Which have certainly provided better research environment. How the network of a person who graduates from top program compares to the network of a mid-ranked institution student? Is there really a steep discount, after all?
What I am trying to understand is partly the beliefs underlying what you state. Assuming that what you say is true regarding the better research environment and better network accounting for the 20% increase in productivity among top school graduates, why do you (and apparently others) discount it. That is part of the value of a student from a top school. Its as if you are saying "we must discount the greater productivity of students from top schools because one of the primary reasons they have increased productivity is because they went to the top schools." I still don't quite understand the rationale for discriminating against top school graduates because their greater productivity is in part determined by the quality of their training ground. Hopefully, the discount will quickly dissipate in a manner similar to the way I understand it did on certain types of baseball players after Billy Beane's success with the Oakland A's resulted in the relatively rapid dissemination of information regarding the steep market discount on certain types of baseball players.
If somebody comes from a top school, they better come out with publications because they have way more resources. However, someone from a lower ranked school with a publication in a B or a couple of C journals might be a real bargain. I come from a lower ranked school and I remember talking to my department chair on this issue. It really bothered him that candidates from top schools considered themselves to be more worthy of the position because of their training even though their CV demonstrated no evidence of research productivity. Better trained maybe, but what did they do with that training? Somewhere on this blog someone mentioned that one can expect higher returns from an education at a higher ranked school, but with it comes higher risk and expectations. Fair or not, I perceive that this is the case
JMHO: Seeing how this is a relative question, maybe the question could be possed another way: Why do R1 schools place such premium on top 25 candidiates? I have not read the paper, though it is now on my to do list. However, what are lower quality schools demanding? Greater research productivity? Greater experience in the classroom? It seems to me that many SLAC schools are demanding a different set of characteristics than a R1 school. So, the market seems to say that R1 schools prefer (greatly) the product produced by top 25 PhD programs relative to SLAC.
It appears that many have a unique and interesting anecdotal experience to share on this issue. However, as economists, most of us understand the importance of large samples and statistical research. That's not to say that all large samples are good, or that all statistical research is good. On the other hand, opinion based not just on personal experience, but on personal experience perhaps influenced by a strong negative emotional response to a particularly unpleasant person (or group of people) is likely unreliable as representing a fair and complete appraisal of all people from the group. I would hope that many would read the paper, but more importantly, that many would try not to have their appraisal of all middle range students from top schools be colored by their opinions on and/or emotional response to a select few middle students from top schools with poor behavior, attitudes, and or ability. Additionally, assuming the paper's results are valid, if one's personal experience with middle students from top schools is not consistent with data from the paper, it might also be that the selection criterion for interviews of these students results in a biased sample of lower ability students compared to the average.
"If somebody comes from a top school, they better come out with publications because they have way more resources. However, someone from a lower ranked school with a publication in a B or a couple of C journals might be a real bargain."
Yes, exactly, this is the perception which seems to be driving the discount on middle students from top schools. But what might explain this osentsibly inaccurate perception?
Wait - who said that students at top schools receive superior training? In the interest of full disclosure: I am a product of a lower-ranked department... But from what I know (a fair amount, btw) every PhD program provides standard training, at least in the theory courses - we all read the same textbooks (e.g., Mas-Collel, Whinston, and Green or the equivalent for Micro) and the same papers in advanced courses. The *only* difference is the fact that at top schools you get to work with top people (in fact, that's what makes it a "top school").
There is a point to all of this: mediocre students at top schools are unambigiously worse than top students at mid-ranked schools because the only thing that seprates them is the name of the school on their diploma (and possibly the quality of their undergraduate work, which is how they got into the top graduate school in the first place). So quit whining about being discounted - if you are in the top-ranked place, you *still* have to signal your quality by publishing something (hence someone's comment about coming out with pubs if you are at an elite place)...otherwise, you are just someone who spent 5 years surrounded by smart people.
"Wait - who said that students at top schools receive superior training?"
I don't think anyone did. The only reference to superior training I could find above was:
"I come from a lower ranked school ... Better trained maybe, but what did they do with that training?"
I'm sorry I ever asked the question about discounting, it has generated way too much hostility. Why don't we just end this thread, things are stressful enough right now for many of us.
One more thing. What I should have said above is (change is in Caps):
"Apparently, (see reference below) students from top schools that get middle/low ranked jobs are 20% more productive ON AVERAGE than their counter parts from middle/lower ranked schools that get equivalent middle/low ranked school jobs."
Undoubtedly, there are some students from middle/lower ranked schools that are better than even the best students from top schools.
Not sure if this post belongs on the compensation and negotiations thread or not, but in the interest of getting this thread back on the topic of questions for the demand side ... my question is: when rejecting an offer, what is the proper etiquette? Call search/dept chair first and then follow up with email? Written letter also? I don't want to offend anyone whose paths I may cross again in the future.
I've been teaching for more than 20 years (SLAC) and I've never seen a contract. We get letters of appointment signed by the dean, but they're never countersigned by the employee. How unusual is that?
Any way of ensuring that econ depts get to know about the compensation wiki? Can we send them a mass email? If you get just one offer, how can you use information about what other similar depts are paying to get a better deal? Any suggestions?
192 comments:
When do most schools make the flyout decisions? I know that top schools do it ASAP, sometimes at the AEAs.
But, smaller schools (even top LAs) may be bound to wait until school is in session (to wait for the dean's approval, etc.)
So, what's the 90% confidence interval? a week after the meetings? 10 days?
Most will invite flyouts by the end of January.
Should candidates send post-interviews thank you emails?
9:58, can't hurt and for some recipients, is probably expected and a good idea. So you should, yes. I'd say send a short email to all the people who were in the interview, and keep it very short. Also, if they are high on your list, I'd tell them in the email - although I think if they are hire on your list, then you should mainly rely on your adviser to communicate that, since individually telling them that is a form of cheap talk, whereas advisers doing it on your behalf is not.
I have a question for the demand side: when we flyout there is a presentation (job talk), my question is what kind of school will ask us to deliever a sample teaching course instead of present job market paper? Private liberal art school or public BA-granting institution, or both?
10:35. You should ask your contact for an itenerary beforehand. That way you'll know exactly what you're supposed to do. What I've heard is that for research schools, you'll be giving a talk, having meals with faculty, and meeting them one-on-one. For teaching colleges, you'll likely have to teach a class.
I also heard that when you go out to eat, you should order something light. The reason being that you'll be talking the entire time anyway, so you can hardly finish anything, let alone something big. Also, if they ask you to order the wine, play it safe and ask what everyone else likes. That way, you avoid the situation of ordering something that someone hates.
Second tier liberal arts schools will ask for you to teach (say 30 minutes--sometimes on a topic of your choice, sometimes not). they will almost certainly let you know this ahead of time, although I've had one colleague who was ambushed by it. So ask!
I've never heard of a research school doing this, and the top liberal arts schools (e.g., Williams) are trying to signal their research intensity, so they usually won't ask for it.
What will the opening offers be this year?
I have a question for the demand side. The interviewers usually will not reply thank you note, right? If they reply, and write sth like this "we look forward to keep in touch with you in the future" or "you will hear from us soon" or "we hope to see you soon", does that indicate continued interest that probably lead to flyouts?
in my experience, those who are interested will send a return. But, some polite people will also send a return.
So, silence is a signal, but a reply is less so.
The wiki indicates that many schools that have already made fly out offers are ranked either in the top 10 or 25, or below 50. Will schools ranked around 25-50 be days or weeks slower in making their fly out offers?
10:11 - that makes sense, actually. 25-50 may be waiting for the top schools to make their choices. But below 50, those schools are competing for an entirely different sent of students.
10:22 - I agree that there is some separation of the market. But do you think the schools in the 25-50 range are waiting for the top 25 to make job offers, or just fly out offers, before they make their fly out offers? I would be surprised if the former is the case, but the later isn't too convincing to me either.
10:11 - notice also that many schools have just started to schedule fly-outs. Many (not Princeton) have announced only very few names.
I am on the hiring side of the market.
We are in the 25-50 range and have made flyout offers to some people. We have a small number of candidates that we like, but presume will be getting flyouts at top 10 schools. We are waiting before inviting these types of candidates out until we see whether we have a chance, or not.
But, to repeat, we are not waiting on all of our candidates, just a small fraction of them.
12:39 - How can a candidate signal to you their interest in getting a fly out from a school like yours without (1) seeming presumptuous or (2) negatively influencing your prior beliefs about the quality of the candidate? Or do you just recommend sitting tight and waiting?
If a school replies to my thank you note saying "wish you a good luck in your job search", does it mean I have no chance there??
2:46 - it doesn't mean anything. This a two-sided matching problem, and so it's unclear even to the demand-side whether extending an invitation will result in a hire. They're just being polite. Just watch the wiki board to see if your school has made any invitations.
When does the campus visit exactly take place? Within 2 weeks after the call?
4:45 PM - there is no "exact" rule for when the campus visit takes place; it could be one, two or even three weeks after the call
I would really prefer not to wear a suit to my fly-outs because I'm doing 4 visits next week, and am usually flying out the same night immediately after the talks. So wearing a suit will be uncomfortable. I'm much more comfortable in, say, a sport coat, shirt and tie. Would wearing a shirt, tie, nice slacks and a corduroy jacket be an okay thing to do?
Are you saying you don't want to wear a suit at any point? Or, just for the travel (when they may be picking you up at the airport, etc.)?
Rule of thumb: suit for the interviews/job talk. Business-casual for everything else.
Jan 10, 1:15 asked "How can a candidate signal to you their interest in getting a fly out from a school like yours without (1) seeming presumptuous or (2) negatively influencing your prior beliefs about the quality of the candidate? Or do you just recommend sitting tight and waiting?"
Under normal circumstances it is best to just sit tight and wait. If a school is interested in you, they will contact you. If they are interested, but not sure if they can get you, they will likely still contact you.
Earlier I wrote that my university is waiting to see how the market for a few candidates develops before inviting them for a flyout. I should have added that we let the candidate know this.
Now, there may be some exceptions where you might want to signal your interest. I think a short email to the people who interviewed you that thanks them for their time and lets them know you are particularly interested in their position will suffice. Or, ask your advisor to contact them him or herself.
Generally, the fear that a particular school may think they do not have a shot at you is more important at the first stage (i.e. choosing whom to interview at the ASSA meetings). Once they've interviewed you, it is much more likely they will contact you to assess their odds of attracting you.
12:02PM - Thanks a lot. That was very informative.
Any info on what salaries will look like this year?
I heard of one econ dept in the NE starting negotiations in the low 80s.
On the other hand, there's always Keene State...
http://www.aeaweb.org/joe/0612d/html/joe042.html
10:15 - what's Keene State's starting salary?
check the link. mid-50s i think.
10:27 - egads. That's depressing.
that's because it's unionized, so that econ profs make the same as any other (i.e. philo, english). CUNY has the same thing, with the exception of Baruch.
that's because it's unionized, so that econ profs make the same as any other (i.e. philo, english). CUNY has the same thing, with the exception of Baruch.
Regarding attire. I have numerous flyouts, some of which are two day trips with a department. To play it safe, I wanted to just wear my suit for the entire duration of a trip to a school, but my wife thinks it's a good idea to pack something "business casual" for dinner.
Can someone on the demand side discuss the range of clothing preferences for such a trip. I know for the job talk itself, a suit is appropriate. But what about meals - say, dinner? And what about the second day where I'm just visiting with various people.
When in doubt, ratchet it up.
Main presentation day: suit.
Otherwise: dress slacks, sport coat, and possibly a tie.
No one will have a problem with you being too dressy. But, someone may have a problem with you being too casual.
When your ride picks you up from the airport, they'll generally let you get checked into the hotel before dinner. You should be in a dress shirt and slacks at least. Just simply ask if you should put a tie on for dinner. That's the simplest approach.
Still looking for salary info, esp. regional variations. How much will salaries differ between the Southeast and the Northeast, for instance?
6:48 - good information. So what you're telling me is, no one is going to think you are over-dressed if everytime they see you you are in a suit - even at dinner. Right? I mainly want to take all the attire-risks off the table, and just play it safe the entire time.
8:37--I think that's right. The only caveat is that I think it's better to not wear the same suit two days straight. But, this is simply a personal preference.
So, for me, I'd wear a suit for the interview day (including dinner), and a coat/tie and nice slacks for everything else.
If you do wear a suit both days, I would wear a tie/shirt combo that made it clear that I was wearing a different outfit each day!
To first-tier liberal arts colleges: Would you advise your fly out job candidates, in preparing for their seminars, to error on the side of too much technical detail but not broad enough appeal, or too little technical detail but very broad appeal? Just wondering how I should "taylor" my seminar to places such as yours. Thanks.
Regarding top liberal arts colleges: consider your audience.
We are well trained economists, but probably not in your field. So, your talk should be more general. Assume that we're smart, but that we haven't been exposed to the particular literature or techniques that you're discussing. You'll need to motivate why your topic is important and how it makes a contribution.
We're evaluating you in part on your ability to communicate as well as your ability to produce decent research.
One technique is to skip certain details in the interest of time, but to tell your audience that you're willing to spend more time on that portion if they are interested. Make sure you describe the important technical aspects at an intuitive level. Be prepared to alter the flow of the talk on the fly.
what are the ethics of canceling flyouts? i have recieved an offer from a place high on my list, but still have a couple flyouts remaining. i want to cancel them, but my advisors say i might "offend" people. this makes absolutely no sense to me. why would a school want to fly someone out who has 0 probability of accepting the job? (btw, i am not talking about top 20 departments here) a further piece of information: the offer i want is to leave to academia, so there is no "networking" concern here.
To 10:06am -- This is 9:31am again. Thanks so much for the reply. It was very helpful.
To 10:19am -- I would say by all means, cancel a fly out that you would never consider accepting an offer from. I think Cawley's paper might have somethinng to say about this as well.
When do schools expect to start making their offers?
3.52pm: schools would typically wait until after the last fly-out. They may have a faculty meeting the day of or the day after the last flyout. So check the school's recruiting/seminar schedule. this is also a very reasonable question to ask during your flyout, although you may not get a completely honest answer.
Exception: schools may be forced to make an offer before they see all the candidates in case their top choice has a competing exploding offer.
I was wondering, does anyone know anything about the job market scramble? Are these just crappy jobs no one wants or what? Or is it a case that reasonable places like UC Santa Cruz just lose all their candidates. Any idea of how many jobs appear. Also, any idea of what the jobs in the FEB JOE are like? Any thoughts at all would be much appreciated.
January 21, 2007 7:09 PM: Check this out from last year. You can also pick other month/year combos for past JOE's to get idea of post AEA ads.
http://www.aeaweb.org/joe/0602d/html/
What happens at Liberal Arts Colleges (and low ranked state schools) if flouts are done, offers are made, and no one accepts. Do schools then go down their list and make additional flyouts, do they scramble, or do they just postpone the search until the next year.
12:32 PM - Each school will decide based on the quality of the remaining pool of candidates. If there is nobody "acceptable" they will postpone their hire to next year.
My school is ranked top 25-50. I had a good number of interviews at LAS (small schools), state universities like University of "State" at ....I did not receive any calls and it seems that they did not offer flyouts yet. Is the timing right? When they should make call? Is it a bad idea to email them now?
To 7:01 I think you never e-mail the schools unless you have new info that is interesting for them (such as flyout in the area).
Ask for help! I was supposed to have fly-out this week. I was unable to go due to one thing that is beyond my control. The school then re-scheduled my fly-out to march 1st.
Does this mean that they are less interested in me? In general, how would offer deicsions be made? Do you wait until finishing all fly-outs, or you pretty much already have a decision whenever you see a very close match? Thanks!!
12:32---I've seen this happen at LA schools. We see 3 candidates that we like, we make offers, they turn us down, and we go on down the list into March.
As someone said, this depends on the applicant pool. We have rolled over to the next year in the past, but this year's candidates look quite good, so I don't see us doing that this year.
12:02--hate to say it, but it depends.
Schools rarely make offers on a position if they've already *scheduled* other people for flyouts for the same position. But, if they have multiple positions, then they may make a quick offer.
To 12:45pm.
Thanks! So, I should I feel that I still have decent chance. They called me for fly-out right after the ASSA meetings!
There are several LA colleges that I interviewed with (and that I am interested in) that are near one another and within driving distance of me. Though I have not heard from any of them regarding a flyout, I am considering contacting them and suggesting that I drive up for a campus visit due to their proximity to me (and one another). Is this a good idea.
3:20---Worst that can happen is that we say no.
The only way it makes a difference is if you were on the margin and they are still debating who to have out. Since you can't know this, you may as well try. If you're not annoying about it, then there's no way to annoy anyone. :)
I recently had a campus visit where I thought I did quite well during my teaching demonstration and research seminar. But I was a little quiet (mainly due to fatigue) during faculty dinner and also during some of the office visits later in the evening. To what extent do you think this will hurt my chances?
For future campus visits, if I were to err on one side, which side do you think that should be - too much talking or too little?
Any advice will be very much appreciated.
Don't err on any side, talk the right amount and adjust it if you feel you are the one talking the most/ the least. If you are too nervous or anxious to realize that you are talking too much (or too little) - maybe you are in the wrong field, after all all you are doing is meeting with people...which is kinda what this job is.
One more question to demand side: One staff from a school (not in the U.S.) has been working hard for arranging my fly-out to that school (invitation letters, visa, etc.). Should I send him a small gift when I see him? Thanks!
9:12. I don't completely agree. The higher ranked the school, the less social skills matter. But, I agree with your advice overall.
5:55. I've seen this make a difference. But, I'm at a teaching school, so social skills and communication skills do matter here. If you're a naturally quiet person, you may want to be intentional about speaking more. If you are naturally boisterous, then you may want to tone it down.
11:33. No gifts. An email thank you is fine.
I have a silly question, please don't laugh at me.
When we transfer the airport, and we eat some humburger, should we keep the receipt for reimbursement, or we pay it ourself?
That is a silly question (sorry...) - it is an expense incurred while travelling to a campus visit - why wouldn't you get it reimbursed? If you don't want to bother with an extra receipt, that's another story, but as it is I don't see how this meal is any different from anything else you may pay for out of pocket.
I am not demand side, but it seems to me trying to be reimbursed even for a hamburger is too much, or too greedy. I may be wrong though...
remember that most reimbursements go through the department secretary, so it doesn't matter so much. meals are generally accepted to be part of travel expense, unless you're kicking back beers at the airport bar.
I once tried to get dry cleaning put on my hotel bill b/c it was part of a multi-day national flyout tour. They balked even though they were sharing airfare. Go figure.
How about a visa application fee? In my case, Canada. I am happy to go and I already paid for it, but if they could reimburse me it would be great. Should I ask them or just forget?
Is it ok to ask department chair/tenured faculty about health benefits, living expenses etc? Thanks.
What are likely scenarios for those who don't have much on the table right now (e.g. <=2 flyouts)? Is it time to start answering "help wanted" ads at the local fast food restaurants yet?
There is always the Army
I was wondering, is it ok to call a place you didnt apply to at this point to see if theyre interested. Eg for a student at a top 5 place, say, to call a ranked place >60.
When we transfer the airport, and we eat some humburger, should we keep the receipt for reimbursement, or we pay it ourself?
It's fine to keep the receipts and ask for reimbursement, especially if you're a graduate student. We remember what it's like! If you were a tenured professor making a lateral move, on the other hand, you'd look really cheap asking for the burger to be reimbursed...
How about a visa application fee?
Sure, that's a very legitimate expense.
Is it ok to ask department chair/tenured faculty about health benefits, living expenses etc?
Yes, but don't ask about salary. Wait until an offer is made.
What are likely scenarios for those who don't have much on the table right now (e.g. <=2 flyouts)? Is it time to start answering "help wanted" ads at the local fast food restaurants yet?
Don't despair! First-round flyouts don't always work out. It's common to hear in February and even early March. At some point, however, you should consider one-year visiting positions.
I was wondering, is it ok to call a place you didnt apply to at this point to see if theyre interested.
That would seem really weird. Unless you have a very good reason for why you didn't apply when you were supposed to, I'd think that you're just desperate.
"I was wondering, is it ok to call a place you didnt apply to at this point to see if theyre interested."
Thank you for you advice.
One more thing: what if you did apply, but never heard anything back, but still feel you are well qualified for the position (i.e. suppose they might have rejected you initially cos they thought they wouldnt hire you, say).
Actually, I am desperate.
Well, I guess a short e-mail to the Chair saying that you are still interested in the position couldn't hurt you, but the chances that it'll lead to anything are really, really tiny (even if the school you're interested in is hating the people they're flying out, they will tend to go to other people they interviewed in Chicago, and not back to the initial pool). If you're really desperate, contact the places you interviewed with in Chicago, let them know that you're still interested, and ask them where you stand. They're still your best bet. More importantly, don't be desperate! A lot of flyout invitations don't go out until February.
On another thread several people have claimed they have received flyouts after informing schools they will be in the area for a flyout at a different school. I am wondering why this is so. Is it because (1) the student is signaling an interest that makes a school think they have a better chance of "landing" the candidate (and thus not wasting time/financial costs), (2) because the student is signaling his/her availability, (3) the school can save on the financial cost of a flyout (seems unlikely since the greatest cost is perhaps time), (4) other. Any response is much appreciated.
How long after campus visit do the schools make a decision?
3:01 PM - your question has been already answered in this or another thread
2:44 PM - your explanations (1) and (2) seem reasonable. what are you asking exactly?
3:36 p.m. – I am planning on emailing schools that have not granted me second round interviews and am trying to determine what information is most relevant to them. That is, I am trying to determine whether I should simply relay to them my availability, whether I should relay to them my strong interest in their particular institution (where I have it), whether I should offer to provide for my own transportation, or whether I should do something else. Although I cannot be certain, it is possible (and I fear) that many of the schools I interviewed with (primarily liberal arts schools) erroneously think I am out of their reach or am uninterested in them for some other reason. (Note that I come from a school that does not typically place students at liberal arts institutions, but have a strong interest in teaching (and research) nevertheless. Also, note that my only interview is at the relatively highest ranked liberal arts school that I interviewed with at the meetings.)
3:36 - By the way, thank you for your prior (and any future) response.
4:15 PM - Have you talked to your main advisor? He could make phone calls for you. After all, that's part of his job!
2:44---
#3 is important. Remember that even though the time cost is the highest, the actual "flyout" cost is the constraint b/c usually the dean only allows three visits. You can convince the dean to give you four if one is cheap.
So, the time cost is high, but the dean's decision is the constraint.
10:18- Being on the faculty at a place ranked around 60, I could guarantee you that calling us would not land you an interview. To be honest, I think most places would find it insulting and arrogant.
We do not typically fly out people from top five schools. We know that we cannot get the top people from these places. Our experience has also been that the top person from a place ranked maybe 35-60 is much better than a middle of the pack person from a top 5 place. We therefore focus our efforts on the former.
People from top places seem to end up with visiting jobs every year. Attending Harvard really is a high reward/high risk scenario. Obviously if your research hits you can end up anywhere in academia (except perhaps your own school). Because you do not typically have significant teaching experience, however, SLAC and teaching schools are not interested. If your research misses, it is therefore pretty easy to fall all the way to the bottom of the market.
Sorry for the rant but every year I have to interview 5 people with mediocre research who expect us to fall at their feet because of their pretty pedigree.
I have a question re a flyout. Basically, I missed my flight (due to a late faculty dinner). To cut a long story short, the faculty member ended up putting me up at her place, and we ended up sleeping together. Next morning, I had to leave at 4am and we havent got in touch since. Do you think I should email her to thank for her hospitality, or would that convey the impression I was stalking her or something. Really, I feel a bit awkward about it, and have no idea of the etiquette here.
7:54 PM - LOL!!!
To 7:54:
I'm not on the demand side, but I would say that, according to the etiquette of one-night stands, you should e-mail her and thank her for her 'hospitality.' (BTW, we want details on this hospitality.)
7.54P
Is 'she' a faculty member or is 'she' a student?
It wouldn't have been wise if she was on the committee!
Well, actually, she was a senior faculty member, but didnt look her age. To be honest, I think both of us had a bit too much to drink, and, rest assured, this hasnt happened on previous flyouts. Typically, Id feel a bit bad about this sort of thing, to be honest, but she seemed a bit desperate. (Basically, she came in to me naked and said: "Do you supply it on demand?"). Thing is, her husband is also a faculty member (but was away), but according to her, he routinely sleeps with one of the other faculty members (who actually was at the dinner). The dept seems rather sleazy, to put it mildly.
Overall, though, it was a great flyout.
OH MY GOD!!!!
I'm speechless!!!
Oh, my goodness, I am speechless, too. But I have another question: I heard that schools will usually flyout their dream candidates first. So if I am the last to fly out (I don't whether I am the last to flyout, but I think not the first to flyout, either), does that mean I am ranked the last?
I'm sorry, but this is the most implausible story I've ever heard. Even if this actually happened, the interviewee would never write this on the blog since he'd have to believe that this is a unique enough story that he actually loses anonymity with the entire dept he interviewed with.
But thank you for trying to add some spice to an otherwise dry blog with dry questions.
BTW, on my flyout last week, there was a mermaid waiting for me in the bathtub of the hotel room where they put me up. Now I'm worried that I'll be the father of some fishy smelling children. I feel funny about this. What should I do? Did any of you meet a unicorn on your flyout who can give me some good advice?
ha ha..
at least it was funny!
(and I really did need some humor)
5:58---I can understand your point of view, but your experience doesn't ring true to me. I'm sure you're telling the truth, but I don't think the data back you up in terms of generalities.
On the other hand, I only have anecdotal evidence as well. I'm at a SLAC, and we (and our peers) are populated by top 10 PhDs. These were likely not the top people out, so it's a reasonable place to land.
At top liberal arts colleges, students sometimes attend the job talk seminar, right? (or wrong?) In thinking about how to pitch the talk, how important is it that the few students who show up be able to follow the introduction of a job talk? The nitty-gritty technical stuff? Thanks.
Do not pitch to the students, should they show up.
Make it a general talk, but pitched to professional economists.
7:51-You make a fair point and I was being too general. Certainly the top LACs are research jobs and there is a large group of LACs below that that care significantly about both research and teaching.
My point is that 80-90% of the academic demand for new Ph.D.s comes from places that are fundamentally teaching jobs. Most of these places will not look at people who have not taught their own class. Lower ranked research schools really do not need to pick from the scraps of top 5 schools. I think the idea that someone in that position could cold call them and that the school would be interested is silly.
3:27, I believe those graduating from top 10 schools have no fewer opportunities to teach classes before graduating than others. A good many people in these programs become less research-focused and graduate with proven teaching ability. They seem like natural candidates for LACs. More so than top graduates of lower-ranked schools, who will have a strong research bias.
Jan 28, 10:58 - Don't you think this flyout adventure is already common knowledge in the concerned department? Moreover, it may have been an intentional part of the candidate's evaluation, and probably was fully discussed, assessed, and compared the next morning.
Your own story, however, makes no sense to me.
I scheduled a number of flyouts but before I could finish all of them, I was offered and accepted a position from my preferred school. I have called the schools where I still have flyouts scheduled and have offered to cancel. They all prefer to cancel the trip and concentrate on their obtainable candidates. One, however, already bought a non-refundable airplane ticket for me. Since I cancelled, am I obligated to reimburse them for these costs?
3:27-That is simply wishful thinking and it is outright wrong. Harvard, Yale, Princeton, MIT, etc. are far too rich to ever let a grad student teach a class. Some grad students at those places may reach out to teach their own class at another local school, but they are the exceptions. Large, underfunded state schools cannot afford to have faculty teach every course and hence, the grad students at those places are much more likely to teach.
This is not a knock on top ten places. I would certainly prefer to send my own children to a place where only faculty teach courses.
Grad students do teach undergraduate classes at the University of Chicago. It makes a lot of sense, if you think about it. Professors at top universities are far too busy with their research: thay are happy to delegate the teaching to grad students.
At Yale, grad students cannot teach their own course during the fall or spring semesters, but some grad students teach their own course during the summer semester.
at harvard, grad students can design and lead sophomore tutorials in any subject they want, e.g. "The Grown Up Economics of Video Games," "Peers: It's Who You Know," or "Sex, Drugs and Rock and Roll."
I too take issue with 5:48's comments. I am also a student at a top 5 place. Several students here have independently acted as instructors for undergraduate core courses, undergraduate field courses, and graduate courses. It may be that you have not encountered such students, but what you are saying is simply factually incorrect.
The argument was whether students at these places have as many teaching opportunities as their peers at lower ranked schools, not whether they ever teach. The latter often teach 5-10 of their own classes prior to entering the market. This does not compare to "several students" teaching their own class or one counterexample where grad students do not teach (Chicago). It may be factually incorrect to say that they never teach but it is also factually incorrect to say that they have the same opportunities.
If anything, grad students at higher ranked institutions have MORE opportunities to teach. By delegating undergrad teaching, faculty members at the top school can better concentrate on research and graduate teaching.
There seems to be a strange bias against students at highly ranked institutions by some people on this board. Perhaps it is due to negative experiences that the biased individuals have had with pompous students from top tiered institutions. Please keep in mind though that most graduates from top ranked institutions that I know are not pompous -- usually its only the insecure ones who are.
"their peers at lower ranked schools, not whether they ever teach. The latter often teach 5-10 of their own classes prior to entering the market."
How low do we need to go to have 5 classes taught (I assume "teach own classes" means full responsibility)? It is certainly outside top-20. Do people who teach 10 ever graduate??? I would admire them...
i'm surprised jan 28 5:58pm's side comment about teaching is getting the most play, rather than the more general aggressive, dyspeptic, stereotyping rant about people with "pretty pedigrees." i would like gently to remind you, 5:58, that there are human beings on the other side of this process, many of whom are terrified about the lasting consequences that these weeks could end up having on our careers. if someone calls you, it might not be because he or she is trying to be arrogant or insulting. rather, it might be because one wants to be certain that if one doesn't get a job, it wasn't because of an information failure. try to be a little understanding. as tedious as this must be for you, i'm sure it's a whole lot easier to be where you are than where many of us are right now.
2:10am - thank you very much for saying what needed to be said.
5:19 - Congratulations on your new job! That's fantastic. I'm interviewing with my third right now, and let me say, I am very envious of you, not just because you've got one, but because you're not jet lagged in a strange hotel writing a lecture about the law of demand like me! On a serious note, that's so fantastic about your placement. Good luck with your new career.
That you are even considering the question of reimbursement says something about your character. If you chose to reimburse them for the airplane ticket, I think it would be generosity on your part, and not obligation. The ticket is a sunk cost to them. I would not feel obligated to reimburse them, personally. They budget for these very types of things, after all.
I'm at a 60-120 school. I've taught (with full responsibility) six courses. I had to get outside funding to get the courses to stop, otherwise I would've at least taught 2-3 more. Finishing in five years would've been very hard to do with that many, but I think I could've done it, partly becauase at my school, they had me teaching principles of macroeconomics mostly. So the preps were getting smaller and smaller as the years went on. That's partly how the lower tier schools are able to do so many though - most are teaching the same courses over and over.
I think teaching has helped me a small bit, but that's because I'm applying for jobs at places where no decent top ranked candidate is applying. I doubt teaching counts for much at any R1 school.
2:10am -- I am on the supply side but I understand the reason for a rant. It has been answered somewhere (and a few times, I believe) that if a school has interviewed you and thinks that you are not attainable, they will still contact you, sooner or later, to check your status. Thus, the idea of calling a school to let them know that you are attainable amounts to saying "I am so good, I can't believe you have not called for the flyout yet." Well...
You certainly contact schools when you have an offer in hands or is thinking about changing you availability in one way or another, but, well, that's completely different story: you are then saying "you are so good that I (may) prefer you to the other school." I think there are subtle differences, aren't they?
I'm not sure I get all the hubbub here. It's common practice to call schools in the general area to let them know you have a flyout, regardless of one's "pedigree."
If you mean calling a school in CA to tell them you have a flyout in NY, then that's a bit more odd. But, if you phrase it as "I'm starting to get calls for flyouts, and I wanted to be sure to touch base with you before my dance card is full, b/c you are high on my list," then that's different.
And, as you say, calling your top choice school to tell them you have an offer from elsewhere is certainly acceptable.
But, importantly, none of the above would suggest the caller is arrogant in anyway, IMHO.
The original post has suggested e-mailing places to signal one's availability (see January 28, 2007 4:15 PM). That is, not to tell them that they are high on your list, but that he/she expects to be high on their list...
P.S. This said, I don't think the origianl post has been arrogant
Let's get back to January 28 7:54 -- it was a lot more interesting:
While I believe this story (and the unicorn/mermaid story) to be untrue, it's actually not outside the realm of possibility for 7:54 to happen.
Back in the swinging 70s, when I was in graduate school at a top 10 program, there was a couple on the faculty who could very well have done this. The husband was rumored to have a graduate student girlfriend in another department, and openly pursued other women while his wife was in earshot, or even participating in the conversation. There were so few women in the department, other than his wife, that I doubt they would have slept with himk, if only because it would have been too risky for a junior faculty member to do something like that and risk the shame and career suicide that could accompany it.
Whether either of them slept with job market candidates is an interesting question. There were certainly never any rumors about that, and he was pretty bad at keeping his mouth shut when it came to sex.
The wife used to make out with male graduate students at grad student parties. Ugh.
"Whether either of them slept with job market candidates is an interesting question."
Okay. But when they say that flyouts are a good way to get to know the faculty, this is going a bit too far.
That said, economists are all for removing barriers to entry arent they?
I am the writer of the original posts which I think started this whole bruhaha (1/28, 2:44 p.m. and 4:15 p.m.). I wrote the posts because I had noticed that several individuals on another thread were posting that they were successful in obtaining on campus interviews after calling schools they interviewed with at the ASSA meetings and telling them they would be in the area for another interview. With my posts I was asking why making these calls resulted in them getting on campus interviews. That is, I was trying to ascertain what information they were providing to the schools (by making the call) that resulted in the schools deciding to offer an on campus interview. Obviously since the call resulted in the interview, it provided some piece of information that tipped the balance. I was trying to determine what the piece of information was. I received several excellent answers which imply that it could be (1) the students is relating the student's availability, (2) the student was relaying the student's interest, and / or (3) the student was relaying a decreased financial cost of inviting him/her. The "and / or" in the prior sentence is crucial. Any combination (or isolated event) of the three can probably explain getting the on campus interview, depending on the school/search chair. Moreover, its apparent from some of the posts that by relaying inoformation described in option (1), one could either help or hurt one's chances of landing an on campus visit, again depending on the shool/search chair (if it is perceived as being pompous). So bottom line is the strategy may work because of (1), (2), or (3), but it can be a risky strategy if the school/search chair receiving the call perceives the call as signaling (1) and they interpret that as pompous or otherwise offensive. Thank you all for the excellent discussion, it has been very helpful to me.
Another somewhat related question: Im a student at a top 5 place who applied to a place ranked round 70, but never heard back from them. However, this might well have been due to some issue re the possibility of hiring me. As of now, Im extremely interested in this place and would accept an offer from them this minute.
Id be extremely grateful if someone could tell me if its ok to get in touch would them about this.
Hi, I need some advice about accepting the offer:
1) What should I negotiate for? I am thinking of asking them for moving expenses and a new computer (btw, there is no course reduction available). Can I ask for anything else?
2) I've expressed my strong interest in another institution during my campus visit (I haven't received any offer from them). How can I politely inform them that I am thinking of accepting an offer elsewhere?
3) Is there a cost of living calculator somewhere?
Answers to any of the above questions will be very much appreciated.
Thank you.
I recall someone from the demand side had said that there are some changes in how they rank candidates before and after the AEA meetings. My related question is: how often do schools make their first job offer to the 3rd or 4th candidate they fly out instead of their 1st or 2nd fly out candidate (which presumably they ranked 1st or 2nd after the AEA meetings)? In other words, how likely is it for the last fly out candidate to be judged the best one?
6:53--
1) Moving costs and other "startup" money are pretty standard negotiating items. Salary is only negotiable to a point. If you can commit to "if you can give me XX, then I can say yes right now" then you might want to try it. Otherwise having another offer in hand is the best way to move salary. You may want to find out about "hidden" benefits like IRA contributions (my institution is outrageously high---over 10% contribution with no matching required).
2) See similar question in "General job market questions" (at the end of the thread).
3) Lots of cost of living calculators. google.
7:02---In the same way that rankings change after the first round, they can change after the second round.
We had one candidate that we were very excited about after Chicago, but the campus visit showed us that he/she looked good for 30 minutes, but had nothing more to offer.
So, anything can happen. Also, many first choice offers go elsewhere, so it's frequent for a 2nd or 3rd choice to eventually get the offer.
Plus, why is there a presumption that schools schedule their first choices first?
I realize that scheduling conflicts may not always permit top candidates to be flown out first, but I would assume that's the case more often than not.
To 9:56 -- Why would this be the case? I am not talking about flying the top candidate in mid-March, but about the order: schools may have 3 candidates coming in a given week. Would their order mean anything? I could not imagine how. What if it is spread over two weeks? Or if they don't beleive they will be able to get their top candidate?
10:45 - you really can't imagine why the order might matter? How about this. They are interested in seeing their top preference, and so contact him first because they do not want his schedule to fill up.
Our top candidate, the first one we contacted, is coming in fourth due to scheduling issues. I don't think order matters.
To 10:55 -- You are talking about whom they contacted first and I can't agree more with you: why anyone would start calling people from the bottom of the list? You typically does not have this information, though.
We have been talking about scheduling the top candidate first. You example does not apply here.
BTW, haven't you been a little aggressive in your post?
And another thing: schools that have contacted me so far has been offering me a very wide range of dates: pick a day in these three weeks, something like this. I have not necessarily picked the earliest one: I have not known who else is going to call.
Even though people on both sides of the market would like to believe that the order in which candidates come in for campus visits does not matter, I still think it often matters for the ex-post ranking of the candidates. First and last impressions are important in people's decision making process, regardless of how "rational" we may think the demand side is. Anyway, that's just my opinion, so feel free to disagree.
I think order matters and is *correlated* with preference.
We contact our top candidates first. They have the first opportunity to schedule early flyouts. Early flyouts are generally preferred, b/c you save other slots for schools that may contact you later, etc.
For these reasons the order is correlated. The only question is how high the correlation is.
For us (on the demand side) we gave our first candidate an offer before we saw anyone else. He/she was our first choice coming out of Chicago and the campus visit did not disappoint. So, in that case order *really* mattered.
Dear 2:27, why wouldn't you identify yourself (by signing your post Daniel K.)?
6:11pm -- you're making me blush :-p
11:54 - I wasn't being aggressive. Apologies if it came out that way. Terse email posts are notoriously a bad way of communicating, so I should've been more clear. I was mainly trying to say something along the lines of 3:14 - that order is correlated with preference. I would have a hard time believing otherwise, but hey what do I know. I'm new to this stuff.
6:11 - I'm amazed that I actually *got* that joke! If that's not proof I deserve a tenure-track job, then seriously, what else would do it?
Well, I don't get it, and I HAVE a tenure-track job - so who's Ben K.?
Have most middle/lower ranked liberal arts colleges conducted flyouts? What is the general time table for these schools? I still haven't gotten flyout or heard anything from a number of schools and am wondering if I should keep hope alive, or start applying for fast food jobs?
I've often wondered (Q. for the demand side) why schools don't send a form email to people they interviewed at the ASSA telling them they did not make it to the flyouts. What purpose does maintaining this blanket silence serve?
daniel k = nobel laureate in economics
...not to be confused with danny kaye, actor, singer, and frequent USO performer.
10:01 - what I've heard is that demand wants to keep the options open. If nothing pans out with their top 3, they'll contact 4-6.
10:01, I can't agree with you more. I think it is inhumane. Think how much DWL that schools have generated by keeping hundreds of PhDs wondering for weeks and doing nothing productive.
Suppose for some reason, a candidate who accepts a faculty position fails to complete her PhD before starting her new job. What happens then? Will the institution withdraw the offer or will they simply offer a lower salary until PhD is completed???
1:35am -I got an offer yesterday, and what I was told was, "Here's your 10-month salary. If you don't have your PhD when you get here, it's 10% less and you come on as an instructor."
I think, but could be wrong, if you come on without your PhD, the tenure clock doesn't immediately start. That is, tenure starts from the moment of hire, or from the moment you get your PhD after hire.
Another somewhat related question: Im a student at a top 5 place who applied to a place ranked round 70, but never heard back from them. However, this might well have been due to some issue re the possibility of hiring me. As of now, Im extremely interested in this place and would accept an offer from them this minute.
I see nothing wrong with a quick e-mail that says "I'm still very interested in interviewing with you." If we're not liking the people we've seen so far and are beginning to think about flying out more, we may like to hear from you.
2) I've expressed my strong interest in another institution during my campus visit (I haven't received any offer from them). How can I politely inform them that I am thinking of accepting an offer elsewhere?
I'm not sure I get this. If you have no offer from X and you haven't accepted Y yet, you've got nothing to say to X. Once you accept Y (and I mean you sign on the dotted line), then please do us a favor and contact all the other schools to let them know that you're off the market.
In other words, how likely is it for the last fly out candidate to be judged the best one?
It's perfectly possible.
Have most middle/lower ranked liberal arts colleges conducted flyouts?
Yes, sorry. But these schools may also decide to fly out more people if they didn't like (or lost) the ones they already flew out.
I've often wondered (Q. for the demand side) why schools don't send a form email to people they interviewed at the ASSA telling them they did not make it to the flyouts.
B/c we don't know for sure yet. If we hate/lose the first n people we fly out, we may call you. So we don't want to rule you out yet.
Suppose for some reason, a candidate who accepts a faculty position fails to complete her PhD before starting her new job. What happens then? Will the institution withdraw the offer or will they simply offer a lower salary until PhD is completed???
You certainly don't lose your offer! You may get a lower salary, but we actually pay the same.
I think, but could be wrong, if you come on without your PhD, the tenure clock doesn't immediately start.
No, it doesn't make any difference for us. When you start is what counts for the tenure clock. Whether you've defended or not is irrelevant.
to 1:35 better check in place you are interested in, i know some places where you cannot sign the contract without phd (no idea whether you can postpone the contract by month or 2 or you are loosing it, but for sure you cannot make it without phd)
to 12:06: Thank you very much for your comments, this hels us a lot. I hope more people from demand side could like you and answer our questions. Many thanks again!
To 2:33: when do you sign the contract? I was under the impression that you sign the contract when you receive the offer. If that's the case, they can't withdraw the offer, can they?
I assume 2:33 have meant that there may be a provision in the contract. I couldn't imagine either how else it could be...
to 9:16, in the place i have in mind you sign the contract in sept/october which is the time to start your job, is not that? you receive an offer much earlier of course, but no idea what happens if you fail to defend phd by end of sept, sincerely i do not know anyone that would take such a risk
do you sign contract in other places earlier?? please tell me
to 7:03 am:
I am not sure when the contract is signed. Can you give us an idea about the school you've in mind. For example, is it a research university (top 30 or outside top 30), small liberal arts college, masters granting institution?
Was the AEA Job Scramble useful last year? Did the signalling affect the market this year?
to 9:17 research university in EU
to 9:58: What does EU stand for? European Union?
to 9:44: As a candidate, I didn't find the signalling useful. One of the schools cancelled their search after I sent out my signal to them.
from 9:44 to 10:25:
I am a candidate too and it wasn't useful to me either. But I'd like to understand it byond my casual experience. Did the departments in fact take a closer look at their 'signals'? My impression is that they kind of made business as usual (like in the past).
EU = European Union; I guess 9:17 talks about LSE or Tilburg, if considering the world ranking.
Re 12.06's reply:
"B/c we don't know for sure yet. If we hate/lose the first n people we fly out, we may call you. So we don't want to rule you out yet."
I know thats the standard argument, but it isn't really logical. All you are doing is informing people that they did not make it to the top 3 (or 4 or 5) and it can be understood, or there could be a line stating, that it does not rule out still being called, it just makes it more improbable. More information is usually good for both markets and blood pressure.
In any case thanks for replying. I hope people on the demand side rethink this a bit.
About signaling, I think one major problem would have been that most places would have been well into their decision making when the signals were released. And I'm not sure how many departments had even thought about what they would do with the signals. So my guess is -- everyone ignored them.
10:25 Are you referring to the Iowa State cancellation?
10:50 My guess is that it didn't help and didn't hurt. But despite the fact that efforts to increase efficiency are welcome and should be honored, could this signalling procedure have been prepared more carefully?
10:25 to 10:51: It's not Iowa State, it's a small school in the East Coast.
Contracts are usually signed as soon as you officially accept the offer.
If it matters for the school, they will put in a provision about when the PhD needs to be completed. In my case, I was required to have filed it by October, or else I was subject to a discretionary 10% penalty in salary until the PhD was filed. I was also officially an "instructor" up until that point.
Regarding signalling: In my school (top 20), the average benefit seemed to be 1 interview per person. So I do think it made a difference (although end results - i.e. offers - aren't obvious yet).
to 4:15
But are you sure that your PhD candidates wouldn't have had an interview with the school anyway? Were they informed by the interviewers that their signal was decisive?
On signaling: I had interview with SLAC that said they would not have called me without signal cause they thought I would prefer & get offer from research dept.
to 6:45
Was the SLAC Committee right?
Of the 12 or so colleagues from other institutions I talked with, only two changed their interview list due to a signal.
It seems signals only seems to work for those candidates who appear too good and want to signal their willingness to talk to lower quality schools. If signaling works, it might actually reduce AEA interviewing opportunities for those with PhDs from non-top 25 schools.
Ceteris Paribus this will result in a larger AEA scramble.
"Ceteris Paribus this will result in a larger AEA scramble."
Does anyone have any idea how many jobs are available on the scramble? Please?
Also, any idea of the rankings of places available?
4:15 - someone reasoned in an earlier thread that the optimal signal was to send to someone you were already a good match for. He seemed to reason the signal was therefore basically cheap talk - where it might help is to move down, rather than move up. So what you could be observing is just the high correlation between signals being correctly sent.
How do you think Roth, Cawley, and Levine will likely estimate the additional benefit of an interview? How are they going to disentangle, in other words, the endogeneity in signals sent to places where the probability of a match is already very high? I'm not sure how you untangle that, empirically. But I'm sure there is a way - I take for granted that everyone is smarter than me, so I figure someone knows how to do it, even though I can't.
11:15 - I'm not sure I understood your comment. But at least two of the candidates signalled "downward" and got those interviews as a result (explicitly stated by the interviewers). And at least two more signalled "upward" to places that probably would not have noticed them (due to lack of advisor connections). For the latter cases, I don't have specific proof that they wouldn't have had the interviews otherwise, but I suggest that it's reasonable to think that they called attention to themselves where otherwise they might have simply been overlooked.
11:33 - My comment is mainly that someone had reasoned in an earlier thread that you should signal to someone for whom you are already a good match, because signals are relatively cheap. So, you signal to the person who you already think has a good chance of hiring you in the first place. To signal down could bring you on the radar of someone - but, a lot of signaling down already occurs in the letters of recommendation. For instance, I signaled to a SLAC for geographic preferences, and communicated that in my letter. That alone is a signal - and geographic signaling has occured in letters for a long time. So nothing new is added there by creating signals. I suspect your friends signaled down for geographic preferences, right?
So I think that if you signal to schools for which you are already a probable match, it becomes hard to observe the additional benefit of a signal to a match. Did it increase the probability of the interview? Or was it that you sent it to the school for which you were already likely to be interviewed, in which case, it's endogeneous. So we should see signals correlated with interviews. It'll be interesting to see if signals are correlated with final matches, though. But, again, it's still endogenous. So I don't know. I'm not sure how you disentangle that since signals are not random.
What you could observe is last year's survey about "happiness with the match" and this year's, and see if there's any difference. That might be a clue about the usefulness of it. And just interviewing schools - how many invited someone of higher quality because of the signal? How many invited someone of relatively lower quality because of the signal (independent of the letters of reference, for instance)?
What is the price of signaling down using a cover letter signal? Its zero. What is the price of signaling down using an AEA signal? Its the foregone AEA signals to other schools (there are only two AEA signals allowed per person). If you were receiving signals, which one would you put more weight on? (There does seems to be an equilibrium where no schools value AEA signals at all, and thus the opportunity costs of AEA signals is zero, and thus AEA signals are valued the same as cover letter signals, but without thinking about it too much, its probably not a stable equilibrium.)
The price of signaling in a cover letter is not zero. Many many candidates use a blanket cover letter for all institutions. Altering the cover letter for an individual institution requires: 1) time, and 2) specialized knowledge of the institution or information specific to the candidate/institution match.
The time is equally costly for all types. However, the specialized knowledge is less costly for the high type to obtain. So, the signal is differentially costly for the two types.
You can argue that the cover letter signal is still not very meaningful, because the cost difference is not signficant, but this depends on the context.
If I send out 100 apps, but in a cover letter to Swarthmore I discuss a special interest in their urban studies program, I may generate a second look.
Why is there such a steep discount placed on students at top schools? Apparently, (see reference below) students from top schools that get middle/low ranked jobs are 20% more productive than their counter parts from middle/lower ranked schools that get equivalent middle/low ranked school jobs. For a reference on this statistic, see artile by Valérie Smeets, Frédéric Warzynski and Tom Coupé in Summer 2006 JEP:
http://www.aeaweb.org/jep/contents/
I have an offer from a government agency. I was told to contact other places now and let them know. Who should I contact and what should I say?
7:05 AM
On average, top programs produce better job candidates. (Though some of the measured research productivity is due to a placement in an institution with more resources for research and not researcher training.)
But, do the math. The top five programs produce ~100 Ph.D.'s and hire 5-10. The next top 20 produce another 200-300 and hire 20-30. Even if pedigree was a perfect predictor of quality (it is not), many students from top five programs will not get positions in top 25 institutions. More than a few from these top 25 institutions will place outside of the top 300-400 positions (i.e., a non-research position).
Two corollaries:
1. There is a lot of raw talent in lesser institutions.
2. For very many positions, students from programs outside the top 75 need not apply.
To February 6, 2007 7:05 AM
I think they are more careful themselves interpreting their resulsts than you are. On top of their own caveats, how many of the projects that has been publushed soon after graduation has been started while in their Ph.D. program? Which have certainly provided better research environment. How the network of a person who graduates from top program compares to the network of a mid-ranked institution student? Is there really a steep discount, after all?
What I am trying to understand is partly the beliefs underlying what you state. Assuming that what you say is true regarding the better research environment and better network accounting for the 20% increase in productivity among top school graduates, why do you (and apparently others) discount it. That is part of the value of a student from a top school. Its as if you are saying "we must discount the greater productivity of students from top schools because one of the primary reasons they have increased productivity is because they went to the top schools." I still don't quite understand the rationale for discriminating against top school graduates because their greater productivity is in part determined by the quality of their training ground. Hopefully, the discount will quickly dissipate in a manner similar to the way I understand it did on certain types of baseball players after Billy Beane's success with the Oakland A's resulted in the relatively rapid dissemination of information regarding the steep market discount on certain types of baseball players.
If somebody comes from a top school, they better come out with publications because they have way more resources. However, someone from a lower ranked school with a publication in a B or a couple of C journals might be a real bargain. I come from a lower ranked school and I remember talking to my department chair on this issue. It really bothered him that candidates from top schools considered themselves to be more worthy of the position because of their training even though their CV demonstrated no evidence of research productivity. Better trained maybe, but what did they do with that training? Somewhere on this blog someone mentioned that one can expect higher returns from an education at a higher ranked school, but with it comes higher risk and expectations. Fair or not, I perceive that this is the case
JMHO: Seeing how this is a relative question, maybe the question could be possed another way: Why do R1 schools place such premium on top 25 candidiates? I have not read the paper, though it is now on my to do list. However, what are lower quality schools demanding? Greater research productivity? Greater experience in the classroom? It seems to me that many SLAC schools are demanding a different set of characteristics than a R1 school. So, the market seems to say that R1 schools prefer (greatly) the product produced by top 25 PhD programs relative to SLAC.
It appears that many have a unique and interesting anecdotal experience to share on this issue. However, as economists, most of us understand the importance of large samples and statistical research. That's not to say that all large samples are good, or that all statistical research is good. On the other hand, opinion based not just on personal experience, but on personal experience perhaps influenced by a strong negative emotional response to a particularly unpleasant person (or group of people) is likely unreliable as representing a fair and complete appraisal of all people from the group. I would hope that many would read the paper, but more importantly, that many would try not to have their appraisal of all middle range students from top schools be colored by their opinions on and/or emotional response to a select few middle students from top schools with poor behavior, attitudes, and or ability. Additionally, assuming the paper's results are valid, if one's personal experience with middle students from top schools is not consistent with data from the paper, it might also be that the selection criterion for interviews of these students results in a biased sample of lower ability students compared to the average.
"If somebody comes from a top school, they better come out with publications because they have way more resources. However, someone from a lower ranked school with a publication in a B or a couple of C journals might be a real bargain."
Yes, exactly, this is the perception which seems to be driving the discount on middle students from top schools. But what might explain this osentsibly inaccurate perception?
Wait - who said that students at top schools receive superior training? In the interest of full disclosure: I am a product of a lower-ranked department... But from what I know (a fair amount, btw) every PhD program provides standard training, at least in the theory courses - we all read the same textbooks (e.g., Mas-Collel, Whinston, and Green or the equivalent for Micro) and the same papers in advanced courses. The *only* difference is the fact that at top schools you get to work with top people (in fact, that's what makes it a "top school").
There is a point to all of this: mediocre students at top schools are unambigiously worse than top students at mid-ranked schools because the only thing that seprates them is the name of the school on their diploma (and possibly the quality of their undergraduate work, which is how they got into the top graduate school in the first place). So quit whining about being discounted - if you are in the top-ranked place, you *still* have to signal your quality by publishing something (hence someone's comment about coming out with pubs if you are at an elite place)...otherwise, you are just someone who spent 5 years surrounded by smart people.
No need to get so defensive, it was just a question to the demand side (the purpose of this thread).
This discussion seems to be going nowhere fast, except possibly to some borderline offensive remarks.
"Wait - who said that students at top schools receive superior training?"
I don't think anyone did. The only reference to superior training I could find above was:
"I come from a lower ranked school ... Better trained maybe, but what did they do with that training?"
I'm sorry I ever asked the question about discounting, it has generated way too much hostility. Why don't we just end this thread, things are stressful enough right now for many of us.
One more thing. What I should have said above is (change is in Caps):
"Apparently, (see reference below) students from top schools that get middle/low ranked jobs are 20% more productive ON AVERAGE than their counter parts from middle/lower ranked schools that get equivalent middle/low ranked school jobs."
Undoubtedly, there are some students from middle/lower ranked schools that are better than even the best students from top schools.
Not sure if this post belongs on the compensation and negotiations thread or not, but in the interest of getting this thread back on the topic of questions for the demand side ... my question is: when rejecting an offer, what is the proper etiquette? Call search/dept chair first and then follow up with email? Written letter also? I don't want to offend anyone whose paths I may cross again in the future.
A phone call is enough. Explain why you're turning down the offer (where you're going instead) and say thank-you.
When you receive the written offer, do you also receive the contract (with detailed terms and conditions) at the same time?
Please advise.
You receive the contract post-negotiation. We generally don't give "written" offers unless you include email.
Then there's bargaining.
Once there's agreement, the contract gets sent snail mail.
I've been teaching for more than 20 years (SLAC) and I've never seen a contract. We get letters of appointment signed by the dean, but they're never countersigned by the employee. How unusual is that?
I only have a sample of one, but we (a SLAC) issue contracts signed by both parties.
The first contract lasts for 3 years, then there's a new contract at reappointment, and then a new one at tenure.
I just started a wiki page to compile detailed offer and compensation information: http://www.bluwiki.com/go/Econjobmarket_offers
If there are columns to add or substract, feel free to edit it.
Any way of ensuring that econ depts get to know about the compensation wiki? Can we send them a mass email?
If you get just one offer, how can you use information about what other similar depts are paying to get a better deal? Any suggestions?
Some of the econ dept already know about the wiki.
You can use the information to negotiate.
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